[Ari Techner]

I just got back from a trip to AZ and I was lucky enough to find the time to drive over to San Carlos and play Apache Stronghold on sunday.  (perfect day for golf there 60* sunny with a nice 15-20 mph wind)  I was a little worried about the course based on what I had read here about its conditioning but I am glad I went anyways.  The course was not in perfect shape by any means but it was certainly more than playable.  The fairway grass was brown and dormant but I dont see that as a problem.  There was a couple small places around the greens that werent in great shape that were being worked on a little bit and a couple bunkers that were being edged but all in all the course was in fine shape compared to the rumors of its demise.  If your considering making the trip Id advise you to do so and see one of the best designs in the state bar none IMO.  This was the second time I had the chance to play the Stronghold and I was as impressed this time as I was the first time.  I love the natural contours of the fairways and the wonderfully contoured greens.  I also love the feeling that you get on this course on almost every hole, the feeling that you are alone out there with no other holes or golfers within sight.  That and the Stonghold has a seriously strong set of Par 3s.  All in all make the trip just dont expect the course to be in as good of shape as your country club.  

[Bill_McBride]

Great news, thanks Ari!  You share my feeling, that Apache Stronghold is not a course that needs to be immaculate to be enjoyed, in fact the reverse is probably more to the point.

My pickiest thing about AS was the routing of #17 into the very bright late afternoon sun in December/January.  Was that a problem?  We didn't play until a bit later after driving up from Scottsdale, the earlier the better I think.  That is a very demanding par 3 when you can't really see the ball because of the bright sun in your eyes!

[David Druzisky]

Ditto with Bill Ari.  With all this discussion about internal green contours I am thinking about heading up that way in the next couple weeks on a day that is not too cold and I was curious about the conditions.  It has really cooled off though the past several days - below freezing up there at night.

Anyone else want to go?

DbD

[Ari Techner]

Bill,


17 is one of my favorite holes there (more to the point one of my favorite greens) it was playing a monster 225 straight into the teeth and setting sun on sunday.  (a bit of a problem visually following your ball)  We teed off about 1:00pm after driving over from Scottsdale I agree the earlier you can tee off the better.  Aside from the setting sun on 17 it gets pretty cold there after 3:30 there in the winter as the sun starts to dip behind the mountains.  
 

Great news, thanks Ari!  You share my feeling, that Apache Stronghold is not a course that needs to be immaculate to be enjoyed, in fact the reverse is probably more to the point.

My pickiest thing about AS was the routing of #17 into the very bright late afternoon sun in December/January.  Was that a problem?  We didn't play until a bit later after driving up from Scottsdale, the earlier the better I think.  That is a very demanding par 3 when you can't really see the ball because of the bright sun in your eyes!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

You hit the nail squarely on the head / re: 17th hole directly in the setting sun. It can be absolutely murder to see what is happening -- and that includes even when multiple players are present.

Ditto also on the thoughts regarding the cold -- temps can be vastly different from downtown Phoenix to the San Carlos vicinity.

Ari:

I don't think the supporters of AS have ever wanted to see country club conditions -- but they do want to see more than just a report that says things will get better. I hope to be back in AZ sometime in the spring and if I hear more positive reports I may venture for a fourth visit. But, the theshold is quite high against me doing that right now. Thanks for the update though.

[A_Clay_Man]

You hit the nail squarely on the head / re: 17th hole directly in the setting sun. It can be absolutely murder to see what is happening -- and that includes even when multiple players are present.

Yeah, The same thing happens at pebble beach. What a pity!

[Ari Techner]

You hit the nail squarely on the head / re: 17th hole directly in the setting sun. It can be absolutely murder to see what is happening -- and that includes even when multiple players are present.

Yeah, The same thing happens at pebble beach. What a pity!

Just hit the green and it wont be a problem!  LOL  

[ed_getka]

Ari,
  Thanks for the post. I'm glad to hear it is still playable. I need to get there before it's NLE.

[Tom_Doak]

Gentlemen,

Believe it or not, I did know before we built the 17th at Apache Stronghold that it would play into the setting sun in winter.

We had two choices there:  build the hole as it is, or cut out the last two holes (turning the 16th into the finishing hole) and build two replacement holes somewhere out in the middle of the back nine.  But I didn't see two replacement holes which were all that great.  Would you have rather we'd done that?

It's easy to criticize a golf course for "boilerplate" design theories such as playing into the rising and setting sun, but when you are actually designing a course, you have to weigh those issues against the other options available to you on a given site.  I am sure there are designers who never screw up on the sun angle, but who also routinely fail to build inspiring holes because they are too worried about their formula.

Wish I had something new or positive to say about the conditioning issues at Apache Stronghold, but I don't.

[Jim Dawson]

We palyed there two weeks ago. What a blast. Great layout, average conditions, but $45.00 and $10.00 for replay!!!
It's on our "must play" list.
Thanks,
JD

[Bryan Izatt]

Ari, thanks for the update on conditions.  My son and I are going to be in Phoenix next week, and I've been debating taking the hike to AS.  Given your report on the conditions, I'm going to make the trek.  After late fall (now snow covered) fairways in southern Ontario, it can't be too bad.

David, we'll be there somewhere around Dec 16-18th, if you'd like to hook up.

Tom, of course the answer is you should design the best hole and damn the setting sun.  To do otherwise for an hour late in the day for a month or two in the winter would be folly.  Since I'll try to play it twice in one day, I'll probably get to see it in full light and into the sun (or maybe dark).

After reading other Phoenix threads on here I'm starting to wonder if Phoenix public access golf is an architectural wasteland.  Seems everyone is high on the private clubs.  Do We-ko-pa, Talking Stick, AS, Gold Canyon and Longbow suffer so much in comparison to the top ranked Privates?  On what basis? To other highly ranked courses in sunshine states?  I thought Troon North was pretty special until it got surrounded.

Are Arizona National and Ventana Canyon worth the trip to Tucson for a couple of days, or are there more courses in Phoenix that should be played instead?  

[A_Clay_Man]

Do We-ko-pa, Talking Stick, AS, Gold Canyon and Longbow suffer so much in comparison to the top ranked Privates?

 Bryan- I can only speak to the first three and the answer would be, No,they do not suffer.

And soon, We ko PA will have a C&C course, too.

[John Kavanaugh]

After reading other Phoenix threads on here I'm starting to wonder if Phoenix public access golf is an architectural wasteland.  Seems everyone is high on the private clubs.  Do We-ko-pa, Talking Stick, AS, Gold Canyon and Longbow suffer so much in comparison to the top ranked Privates?  On what basis? To other highly ranked courses in sunshine states?  I thought Troon North was pretty special until it got surrounded.

Brian,

If there is one thing this site does very badly it is hype the privates that most if not all of us have access to when the normal world doesn't.  I always prefer playing a private club with a friend from the site as opposed to playing a public alone...it really has little to do with the architecture...privates are just usually a cooler experience.   note: I can only speak to Gold Canyon and was comped...even played with the architect.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I understand the need to find the best holes and that sometimes it's necessary to "ignore the boilerplate" routing rules.

But at the angle we played #17 my only visit, I thought it was almost impossible to hit a solid shot.  I'm wondering if it might be possible to build three tees at the same distance but each at a slightly different angle so that the markers could be set to avoid that situation.  The way the sun was directly behind the pin and low on the horizon, it was blinding.  From ten degrees on either side, it probably would have just been annoying!

Just a thought.  Obviously I'm not the only one who disliked that condition.

I can hear the baying hounds now:  "Get over it!"  

[Tom Renli]

Bryan,
From an architectural perspective, you are correct, not a lot here relative to the number of courses and population.  Based on your comments and assuming that you do not have access to privates.  In the Phx Metro, I would play AS, TS.  You also may want to try the Biltmore and the Wigwan.  Both old traditional non desert courses that have recently been reworked.

In Tucson, I would try the Gallery - 36 holes by John Fought.  Also, Ken Kavenaugh has restored a number of the municipal courses in the city - Randolph Park South, El Rio and I believe Silver Bell.  Email me if you have more specific questions.  Thanks, Tom

[Bryan Izatt]

If there is one thing this site does very badly it is hype the privates that most if not all of us have access to when the normal world doesn't.

Sad to say I must be part of the normal world  with little access to private courses.  When I have had access, I've not always found it to be the most comfortable feeling.  I prefer the UK model of open access, albeit with restrictive times.  

I wonder how much subjective influence restrictive access has on the way people view and rate courses.  The majority of best 100 lists are private in the US - because they're "better", or because they're more unobtainable?  I wonder if architects deliberately set out to build better courses for owners who intend to go private, than those that intend to go public?  Or is there more money spent on private course design and build, resulting in better courses?  

Tom, several people have mentioned the Gallery - is it open to the public?  It's listed as private.

[John Foley]

Bryan,

I can't speak to any of the privates, but played the TPC Desert course last week. It was a very fun & enjoyable 6450 yards. I'd highly recmoneded it and for the price, it can't be beat. Wanted to get toWe Ko Pa, but didn't have enough time.

Next time though I will definetly head that way. When we we're flying out we flew right over and they we're out moving dirt (and seemed to be pretty far along on quite a few holes) on the C & C course  there.

I'm pretty sure that Gallery keeps one of there courses open for Public play. Don't know how long though.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bryan

The Gallery allows limited public/resort access until the membership  is full. Call them for current details. Most prefer the North course there although the South is not chopped liver.

In Phoenix, as mentioned before,in addition to TS North and WeKoPa, I would try the recently renovated RTJ classic non-desert Wigwam Gold. For discounted rates, try www.golf602.com

If you like to walk, TPC Desert, as mentioned before, is one of the few courses in the area where walking is encouraged.

Steve

[Bryan Izatt]

John,

I've played the TPC, and apart from the PGA Tour cache, it wasn't that great. Looking at the Desert course across the street, it appeared to be on a hopelessly flat piece of land.  I'd prefer more elevation change.  We-ko-pa sounds like a good bet.

Steve,

I'll check out the Gallery.  Thanks for the web site.  Any discounts are good, if the courses they have are good.

[PThomas]

I also recommend We-Ko-Pa

[Jay Flemma]

Thanks for this thread.  I'm playing there in Jan and really looking forward to it.  Also kudos for your take that dormant conditions are still excellent.  Tom D wrote a great passage in The Anatomy of a golf course about how five star conditions are sometimes unplayable as too fast.  Now we just have to teach the concept to course developers and casual fans....

[John Foley]

Bryan,

Pretty sure that the TPC Desert course is the least expensive course in NE Scottsdale & Fountain Hills. We played last Friday at 1:00PM for $38 (including a cart) and finished in 4:15 behind an outing of 30 golfers. Not bad for pace of play behind a group of that size.

As for hopelessly flat, your spot on for that, but it has a few raised greens and tees so it's not that bad at all. It actually has some very strong holes.

Considering it's big brother across the street was charing $230, it was a no brainer.

[Ari Techner]

Gentlemen,

Believe it or not, I did know before we built the 17th at Apache Stronghold that it would play into the setting sun in winter.

We had two choices there:  build the hole as it is, or cut out the last two holes (turning the 16th into the finishing hole) and build two replacement holes somewhere out in the middle of the back nine.  But I didn't see two replacement holes which were all that great.  Would you have rather we'd done that?

It's easy to criticize a golf course for "boilerplate" design theories such as playing into the rising and setting sun, but when you are actually designing a course, you have to weigh those issues against the other options available to you on a given site.  I am sure there are designers who never screw up on the sun angle, but who also routinely fail to build inspiring holes because they are too worried about their formula.

Wish I had something new or positive to say about the conditioning issues at Apache Stronghold, but I don't.

You definetly made the right choice IMO.  17 is one of my favorite holes out there and both times I have played the course it was on a winter afternoon.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I like the hole but when you factor in the reality that concluding events may be played towards the end of the day the probability of the 17th being played DIRECTLY into the sun is inexcusable. It is clearly an issue that goes beyond "boilerplate" design.

The same thing happens when you played the final hole at the North Course at LACC and it's one of the reasons I don't find the layout to be AS good as others suggest.

I can understand your desire to flip the issue back to the critics of the hole but might it have been possible for the 17th tee to be played well right of the 16th green and set back alongside the hillside -- making the "new" par-3 play from an entirely different angle so that the sun is not an issue?

Tom -- you doth protest too much. How bout you simply admit that although the hole is nicely done there's still a flaw because of the sunset issue. No doubt you achieved a nice concluding hole with the 18th and I don't know the specifics of the other two holes that could have been used as subsititutes for the existing 17th & 18th holes.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak,

You've got to hire this guy Matt Ward as a senior associate.  He can then stage a bloody coup if need be and take over your firm.  Of course it will be aptly named Insane Ward Designs.  

I've never been to Apache Stronghold but if Matt says the design is inexcusable, well it simply must be.  Now admit you fuqued up and that Matt Ward is a golf architecture savant.   OK maybe just an idiot savant.  OK an idiot at any rate  

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