[Joel_Stewart]

Last week Pete Dye said the Kampen course at Purdue was his most under rated course.  He thought the course was one of his best.  Has anyone played it?


http://www.purdue.edu/athletics/golf/1_course_kampen.shtml

[Andy Troeger]

That's an interesting comment. Of the ten or so Pete Dye courses that I've played, Kampen was my least favorite. Having played the course before the re-design, its one heck of an improvement, but I'd hardly think it's under-rated. Crooked Stick, The Fort, and Mystic Hills are three in Indiana that I prefer.

My biggest criticism of the design was that it seemed like I was playing the same par four over and over, 450 yards, fairway curls around some massive bunker, meaning that a drive hit straight away but a little too far would end up going through the fairway or into the bunker. Biggest issue, however, was that the long grass or heather or whatever its called was so deep and so thick that it was absolutely impossible to find a ball in it (let alone your ball, and forget hitting it if you found it). Seeing as this stuff was everywhere, we gave up looking and just played it as a lateral hazard to help with the frustration. Personally, I think it they kept the stuff cut down enough to allow some recovery other than reloading from the tee I'd have enjoyed it much more than I did. It might be one of his hardest courses (which is a feat in itself apparently), but I'd never say under-rated.

One Pete Dye course that I do think is under-rated: The Fort, in Indianapolis. Mystic Hills in Culver is another that probably very few have heard of that has to be one of the great deals anywhere.

[Bob Barriger]

Andy, said it correctly.   The par 4's seemed monotonous, but we played from the tips and the 450's he talked about were 470 yds plus from the tips and with the wind, I was jacking a 3 wood on a lot of par 4's for my approach. From what I remember, the bunkers were played as waste areas between holes so a waste bunker on the left on one hole was a waste bunker on the left again on a following hole.  I believe Mystic Dunes was a collaboration of Pete and P.B. with one doing the front 9 , the other doing the back 9. I played it when it first opened but haven't been back.  A lot of other options here in Indiana.

[Andy Troeger]

Bob,
  Good points, most of the gigantic "bunkers" I think are considered waste areas. I was kind of guessing on the 450, but it doesn't surprise me that they were even longer from the back...I was glad that I didn't venture any farther back than I did.
  I had heard that Mystic Hills was Pete Dye/P.B. Dye but I didn't realize that one did the front and the other the back. I think the back is significantly more interesting than the front due to the terrain, but I'd be interested as to who did what.
  And yes, Rock Hollow and some other area courses are hands-down better IMO than either one.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pete is saying alot of things these days that do not make sense for a man of his reputation.

[Brad Klein]

Agree with much of the above. I've played many Dye courses, but after a quick tour of the Kampen Course - didn't play it, just drove around to see every hole - in 2004 I came away very disappointed with the place. The holes seemed half baked and poorly articulated. Saw a lot of back tees for the sake of having back tees. Environmentally, the place is a model of rational development, and it serves the community well. But it's way down the list of memorable or interesing Dye courses - or of university golf courses, more generally.

[John Nixon]

Well, I played Kampen this past Sunday morning for the first time, so I'll throw in my $.02.

We had a perfect morning to play - sunny, cool and warming to mid-70s by the time we finished right about 4 hours later. My partner and I, being falliable, played from the white tees, which play from 6411 yards on the card, with a 71.4/135 rating. That 135 is pretty dang high compared to most courses I play, as is the yardage. Perhaps if you're finding yourself having to jack a 3W on your approaches to the par 4s you're playing from the wrong tees for the conditions at the course that particular day. I'm certainly not long, but if I hit a good drive I was usually faced with a short hybrid/mid iron approach on the par 4s. The course seemed a bit over-watered to me, but we were still getting a bit of run on our drives. The over-watering may be related to the very dry weather we've had here in central Indiana this summer.

 The course is very hard, as noted, especially if you're not finding the fairway.  The rough was pretty short, but still nearly impenetrable. Thick, thick, thick.

The greens were, well, Pete Dye. Green complexes, however, did allow a variety of approaches - run up, chip, fly it, whatever.  

My major disappointment is with the par 3s. All involve water down one side (or more). #5 was the best of them, the yardage book remarked it was "direct from North Berwick, Scotland with a Redan type green." Well, I've not been to North Berwick, so I'll take their word for it.

A few of the par 4s did seem a bit monotonous, but at least from the whites there was a good variety in terms of length. #7 is a double-fairway par 4 playing to 290 yards, with a large waste area down the middle.

If you play it, make sure you pick up a yardage book in the clubhouse before starting - there is no information on the scorecard or on the tees as to how any of the holes are laid out, where the hazards are, or anything else.

The course will be hosting the 2008 NCAA Men's golf championships - I would like to see those boys tackle this course from the tips.

[Chris_Clouser]

I'll be playing there in a couple of weeks and will be taking photos.  I will post some photos for everyone to see.  I'll just pull up this thread again to do that.

To be honest the course I'm more looking forward to is Coyote Crossing out of the day trip.

[TaylorA]

The course is a very difficult test - which it's meant to be. If you're hitting 3-woods into more than one par 4 on that course, you played the wrong tees and it's not a wonder you didn't like the course. There is no reason to play this course from the tips unless you're at least a scratch golfer - and then only in tournament play. Those tees that are WAY back there are for the NCAAs, and if you've seen college golfers hit a drive, you'll understand why they need those. I can remember tryouts for the Purdue team back in 1995 on the old North course. We played from tees that didn't exist - sometimes off the backs of greens. I would guess that the course in 1995 was playing at 7,300 yards for tryouts.

The course was meant to be a very, very difficult tract because it is supposed to set itself apart from the south course, which is a traditional parkland course that isn't very difficult.

I will say the rough on the course is over the top and I really agree that the par 3's are repetitive. The course has a great selection of par 5's, some very good par 4's and, as Brad pointed out, is a testament to environmentally sensitive design principals.

The green complexes and the ability to play multiple types of shots into them is one of the course's strengths.

Looking at the scorecard, there are 2 par 4's on the front over 450 yards and 3 on the back - if played from the TIPS. Playing from the blues, there is one. From the tips, there are 4 par 4's under 400 yards. I think there is more variety than the course is getting credit for here.

The course was under construction at the same time as Whistling Straits and Tim Liddy did a lot of the heavy lifting at Kampen.

By the way, here is a link to another thread on this:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=25576

[Steven_Biehl]

In what context did Pete refer to the course?  As one of his favorite courses he has done?  Pete has always talked about how Kampen is one of his favorite courses.  When he talks about the course, he always talks highly of the construction process (with the students), the environmental achievements that were made on the property, and the research ground available to the students.  And, there are several good holes there.  I liked 4, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18.  I thought 17 was the best par 3.  15 is a very unique and interesting par 4 with a large mound on the left side that make approach shots from the left side of the fairway blind.  You need to be on the right side of the fairway, and long to see the green.  I would recommend the course.  But, pick the tees you want to play from, then move up a set.  It is hard.

[Andy Troeger]

Those that have been there recently:

What is the heather like now? When I played there a couple years ago it was the thickest stuff I'd ever seen. Anything that went in was lost, my erratic group hit in there more frequently than we should (mostly a college kid we were paired up...poor guy ran out of balls on #13 even after we'd loaned him a couple) and never found a single ball in there. If that were thinned out I'd like the place much more than I did the first time.

If I went back, I'd play the South. Many fond memories of that course, even if its short by todays standards.

[Doug Ralston]

I'll be playing there in a couple of weeks and will be taking photos.  I will post some photos for everyone to see.  I'll just pull up this thread again to do that.

To be honest the course I'm more looking forward to is Coyote Crossing out of the day trip.

Chris;

I think you WILL enjoy Coyote Crossing. When we played it we thought it was attractive, challenging, and perhaps the best conditioned public course we have played in Indiana.

Take pix and do an article, please.  

Doug

[John Nixon]

Those that have been there recently:

What is the heather like now? When I played there a couple years ago it was the thickest stuff I'd ever seen. Anything that went in was lost, my erratic group hit in there more frequently than we should (mostly a college kid we were paired up...poor guy ran out of balls on #13 even after we'd loaned him a couple) and never found a single ball in there. If that were thinned out I'd like the place much more than I did the first time.

If I went back, I'd play the South. Many fond memories of that course, even if its short by todays standards.

Andy, for whatever reason (choice, poor growing conditions this summer, whatever) the heather didn't seem that prevalent. As I mentioned though, the grass rough, though short, was incredibly thick. I lost 3 balls in it in the first 5 holes. Absolutely lost.

Steven, I'd pretty much agree with your list of holes, though I also thought 16 was the best of the par 5s. And I'd strike 17 and add 5 for the par 3.

[Andy Troeger]

I had heard somewhere that Pete Dye had seen the course since I had been there and told them very clearly that the heather was not intended to be as thick as it was. I cannot confirm that, but in any case I'm glad its not as thick as it once was.

Wouldn't it be nice if average golfers had forecaddies like the pros, we'd never lose a ball either!

[Eric_Terhorst]

Chris,

Look forward to your usual good comments and pics.  

I like the Kampen course but I attended Purdue so it gets some additional affection from me.

I disagree the par 4s are monotonous, as long as you don't go all the way back.  #3 and #11 might be similar with long waste areas bordering the relatively straight holes, but #7 is a 3.5 par with a split fairway, #8 is dog right with a waste area right that is easily avoided, #9 is a long carry from the tee to get the best look at the green or bail right but have a lousy look, #12 is downhill with semi-blindness on the second shot if you put your drive in the wrong spot, #14 is a scary short hole with an islandish green, #15 is uphill with blindness on the second shot unless you hit a very precise long drive, and on #18 the trouble is all around the green unless you snap-hook it.

I think the par 5s are fun with variety and risk/reward options.  The par threes are somewhat repetitive with the use of water.  

The course goes 4s-3s-4l-5s-3m-5l-4s-4m-4l  5m-4l-4m-3l-4s-4s-5m-3m-4l,
using s=short, m=medium, l=long.  It's not a bad walk either.  Monotony?  I don't see it.
         
The greens are always in great shape in my experience, fast and true, not with a great deal of contouring, but few of them require the ho-hum  have-to-go aerial approach.
 
The course is definitely more fun from the blue or white tees, so leave your ego at home and enjoy.

[Tom Roewer]

If it is underrated then we should collectively examine all Art Hills courses.  Cart paths cross the hole on about 1/2 the holes, some seem very close to the green.  Maybe its a new hazard scheme.

[John Nixon]

If it is underrated then we should collectively examine all Art Hills courses.  Cart paths cross the hole on about 1/2 the holes, some seem very close to the green.  Maybe its a new hazard scheme.

Well, I don't get that. They cross the holes occasionally, but hardly "close to the green".  I don't recall a cart path, while crossing a fairway, being in play, or close to being in play, the entire round for either my partner or me.

[TaylorA]

If it is underrated then we should collectively examine all Art Hills courses.  Cart paths cross the hole on about 1/2 the holes, some seem very close to the green.  Maybe its a new hazard scheme.

So now a golf course can be rated based on the location of cart paths? Evaluating a course based on artist renderings of golf holes? Very curious.

[Andy Troeger]

If it is underrated then we should collectively examine all Art Hills courses.  Cart paths cross the hole on about 1/2 the holes, some seem very close to the green.  Maybe its a new hazard scheme.

Well, I don't get that. They cross the holes occasionally, but hardly "close to the green".  I don't recall a cart path, while crossing a fairway, being in play, or close to being in play, the entire round for either my partner or me.

I hit tee shots into the rough surrounding at least two of the cart path crossings if I remember correctly. They can be in play depending on your length and choice of tees. I'm probably long for someone playing at 6700 yards, but I'm not interested in 7300 on that course by any means.

[Chris_Clouser]

Figured I would post after my trip to the Lafayette area yesterday.  

First off, this course is one of the toughest I have ever played.  Second, I was not very impressed.  

It felt like several of the holes were exactly the same.  The first hole I thought was really a good hole.  Actually after walking off the first hole I said to the guy I was with that if the rest of the course is like that hole it should be a fun day.  Little did I know that several of the holes would be almost identical.  I felt like I was seein the same hole all day.  

I knew we were in for something a little different when we got to the second tee and I thought they had put a huge mirror up on the water because on the other side of the pond was an identical hole.  It was weird.  

I'm not sure how to explain the condition of the course, because I saw several problem areas and there were several tees that just seemed to be put in weird locations, much like Brad described earlier.  One back tee required you to walk across a bridge and then back on a narrow strip of land about 100 yards.  I did it to catch a photo but I felt like the mosquitos would eat me before I got back to solid land.  But that may be the way they want the course to look.  

They were doing several things around the course in preparation for the 2008 NCAAs.  So there were a lot of maintenance issues.  

The cartpaths were an issue for me as well, but more from an asthetic point of view.  There were a few holes where the path runs all the way up to the green in the waste bunkers along the edge of the hole.  This is fine except on those days where you have a 90 degree rule in place.  People have to go through the waste bunker to get to the fairway and then back through the hazard to get back on the path.  Not a good thing as I saw on a few occassions looking around the course.  Also the cartpaths do cross several holes but that would not be a problem if they weren't lined with six inch rough on both sides.  

The rough around the course was deeper than anything else I've seen except for US Open stuff.  There was no give either.  

Also, when we were on the first fairway I asked one of the maintenance guys who was coming back in if the course was always this wet after rain.  I was assuming they had some heavy rain the night before from the water standing in the fairway.  He said that it had not rained and that they just water the course that much at night.    

Needless to say in 100 degrees and high humidity it was a long round.  But it was over in about 3 hours.

Holes I liked were 1, 4, 8, 15 and 16.  Actually 15 reminded me a lot of the 13th at Sahm Park here in Indianapolis.  Not exactly the same, but some similarities.  What the rest of the course reminded me of were the bland holes at the Fort here in Indy.  

If Pete Dye thinks this is his favorite course then I think someone needs to reintroduce him to The Fort.  It is a much better course and is not that much more than Kampen to play.

The good part of the trip was the round I had at Coyote Crossing in the morning.  First off the tee and done in three hours.  That is a great course and I played for $35.  It is probably in my personal top five in the state.  If anyone is going to Lafayette for the NCAAs in 2008, go play CC.  

Also after Kampen I went down to Harrison Hills.  The Langford holes are amazing.  The Liddy holes don't compare very well, but to be fair to Tim he had no chance on this one.  Played with a member after it rained and we played the course in about 2.5 hours in carts.  We didn't want to get stuck on the far end of the course if it rained again.    

I'll post a few photos from the trip when I get back in town later this week.  

[John Nixon]

Well, my impression is that Pete says it's a favorite not necessarily because of the course, but because of the process by which the course was built.

Chris - I too was surprised at how wet the course was the morning we played. I assumed it was just due to the extremely dry summer we've been having, and there was a need to keep it well-watered. But I've been wrong before.

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
Your take on Kampen sounds like mine in a lot of ways. A few good holes, a lot of redundancy, odd maintenance patterns.

I'll be interested to hear more detail from you about Coyote Crossing. I liked the course well enough, but when I played with my Dad, who no longer carries the ball very far, I noticed that the course played relatively easy for me and very difficult for him with all the cross hazards. I think the stretch of 7-13 really did him in, whereas for me I just put the driver away and played position golf to keep it out of the ever-present creek! I did have fun playing the course, I just wouldn't put it in my top 10 publics in the state. It is comparable to the back nine at Wildcat Creek in Kokomo.

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

You are right about Coyote.  It felt like the back nine at Wildcat only better and for 18 holes.  I can see based on our communication why you might not rate it as highly as me.  The length from the tips is probably a little short for you to feel like you get a total challenge.  For me it was about perfect from there.  I just felt like there were so many good things there.  It could be a course that I could play just about every day.  And those days I want something more challenging I can go to the campus and play Kampen I guess.  The only thing that might upset that is how much housing ends up going around the course.  Right now it appears that it might only border holes 1 and 2, which wouldn't be that bad.  

I'll probably do one of my write-ups on it once I get back in town later this week or early next week.  

By the way, going to try and see the Brassie while up at the Dunes this week.  

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
The Brassie is "The Legends of Indiana--North." Both Jim Fazio, both appear to be former cornfields.

I'll save Coyote for your thread on that. If in Lafayette, I'd play there first as well, then Ackerman, then Kampen.

I'd probably go 5-4-1 out of ten rounds. Kampen is just too hard, the others are more fun.

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

The Brassie was very much like the Legends and perhaps a little more entertaining.  Something I noticed in common between the two was the variety to the green entrances.  It is a design element that is often overlooked but evidently Fazio doesn't seem to gloss over it as much as others do.  Too bad the rest of the course does not have that much thought put into it as it seemed fairly standard from the tee, much like Legends.  I wish they had taken advantage of the sandy soil and actually built a links style course instead of the typical parkland layout.

Anyway, here are some of the photos from my trip to Kampen.

Here is the first.  It was actually a very good hole.  The one thing I noticed about the waste bunkers was that on this hole the longer players could actually carry the bunker if they wanted instead of just playing alongside it like the rest of the course.


The second.  Take out the bunkers and you have the same hole as the 17th on the opposite side of the pond.  



The approach into the fourth.  This was actually one of the more penal approaches but was different than most.


The controversial 7th.  This just seemed like a gimmick hole to me that Dye didn't know what to do because the terrain was flat and he already used his template for short holes on a later hole (the 14th).


The 8th actually was quite good.  The waste bunker is actually a distraction as the best play is a fade off the tee and using the roll of the fairway from the left side to the right to set up a better angle into this green.  The pot on the left side is the key to the hole.  You don't want in there.


The next three photos show you the typical tee shot, approach and view from behind on most of the course.  The only variance is which side the hazards are on.  

Tee shot on 10


Approach on 18


From behind 15


Note on the hole from behind how the complex is built so that it tilts into the green, in theory to help the player that does not want to play directly at the bunker.  This formula was used on 12 holes on the course with some slight changes here and there but essentially they are the same strategic idea.  

One thing I noticed on this course is that there are several holes that I felt like I have seen before on Dye courses including holes like 2, 17, 13, 14 and of course the standard hole template mentioned in the previous paragraph.  One thing I found odd was that the 15th seemed to be a very similar concept to a hole that Dye did at Sahm Park in Indy, the 13th.  It uses many of the principles, but lacks the natural terrain movement to pull off the hole as effectively.

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