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Pat_Mucci

Their bite is worse than their bark
« on: November 20, 2005, 09:49:16 AM »
There are holes that appear easy, from the score card and the tee, yet, they have a knack for producing high scores.

# 3 and # 12 at Seminole are two such holes.

# 3 is a short, dogleg right par 5, under 500 yards, played from a high tee to a low fairway and back to an elevated green.  There is no water or out-of-bounds adjacent to the hole.  And, the fairway is generous.  The green cants right to left and back to front.

It would appear to be an eagle or birdie hole, yet, it produces more than it's share of high scores including double digits.

# 12 is a short, straight away par 4, played from a high tee to a low fairway to a very slightly elevated green.
The fairway is wide and there's room right.  Left is a creek and out-of-bounds.  The green is angled in front, looking a little like your left foot pointed at a 90 degree angle.
The green is well bunkered and sloped back to front.

I was told that it was the third hardest hole in last year's Coleman.

Is it their seemingly benign nature, on the score card and on the tee that lulls the golfer into a false sense of security ?

Or is it the subtle, benign looking architecture, that upon closer examination, isn't so benign, that misleads the golfer, or is it a combination of both ?

What other holes look like it would be hard to make more than a bogie, but, pile up big numbers on unsuspecting golfers ?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 10:44:52 AM by Pat_Mucci »

Nick Pozaric

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 10:42:18 AM »
I think most of the trouble on the 3rd is with the severity of the green.  The member we played with said he thought it was an unfair green when it had any speed at all and many members thought similar.  The 3rd green I hit on the left side and  I thought it was a good shot but it caught one of the slopes and rolled off to the left.  From there I had an impossible shot.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 11:18:11 AM »
I think the 12th at TOC proved to be of the same nature during this year's Open.  There were lots of people driving or almost driving the green, yet I didn't see an eagle 2 in my few hours of observing there, and very few birdies.  

Pat_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 03:02:17 PM »
Nick,

What did you make on # 3.

While the green can get dicey at high speed, the hole is relatively short, thus approach shots shouldn't have a problem getting under the hole.

With left to right wind off of the ocean the tee shot can be disastrous should you let the ball get away from you in the slightest.

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 08:55:26 AM »
Pat:
I played Seminole on Thursday and after a birdie-par start hit a perfect drive on #3.  I walked away with a 7.  At some point I hope to post some pictures and discuss it more.  In a nutshell its an fantastic thinking mans golf course, brilliant routing with great greens.  There is not one weak hole and they are all unique.

With that said, I attended a seminar over the weekend in which Pete Dye spoke.  Pete came out blasting Seminole (he's been a member since the 1960's) especially the greens which have very little original Ross left in them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 10:22:55 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2005, 09:15:28 AM »
Joel That is a great comment about Seminole which I agree with 100%. Pete should know better than to make such poorly thought out comments. Then again he bragged on the TPC course in new orleans which has very little to brag about at all except the cost of $24,000,000.

Pat_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 10:55:43 AM »
Pat:
I played Seminole on Thursday and after a birdie-par start hit a perfect drive on #3.  I walked away with a 7.
This is exactly what I meant.

Disaster on this seemingly benign hole can strike on any shot, the drive, second shot, approach, recovery or putt.
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At some point I hope to post some pictures and discuss it more.  In a nutshell its an fantastic thinking mans golf course, brilliant routing with great greens.  There is not one weak hole and they are all unique.

How was the wind ?
On Saturday it was a good two to three club lengths.
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With that said, I attend a seminar over the weekend in which Pete Dye spoke.  Pete came out blasting Seminole (he's been a member since the 1960's) especially the greens which have very little original Ross left in them.

According to whom ?
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rjsimper

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2005, 08:11:31 PM »
4 at Rustic - at least in it's pre-flood form...one of the few holes I've ever stepped up to and just flat out laughed the first time I saw it...really not many holes I can think of that look easier than that one did, yet without the aid of a front pin, par was a 1 in 3 proposition

Ian Andrew

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2005, 10:21:00 PM »
Patrick,

The 3rd is only hard due to the severe (err... rediculous) cross slope in the green which is worsened by where the ball ends up after rolling off the green. A left middle pin was beyond comprehension to me.

# 12 is a better example, the angled and narrow green places such a premium on the approach. The narrowness then makes recovery very delicate to say the least. Funny that was my worst score when I played there. And your comment of "seemingly benign nature, on the score card and on the tee that lulls the golfer into a false sense of security" is very well put.

I think you find out the muistake you made after you missed your approach. Your right, they lull you into not taking enough caution.


Some other suggested holes:

Pebble Beach's #12 (looks simple)
Cypress Point's 4th (that green!)
San Francisco's 10th (so damned wide)
The Old Course's 12th (must have a go at the green....)
The Island Club's 7th
Portrush's delicate 12th
Baltray's short 5th (the massive cross sloe in the green heading towards the run off)
NLGA's 6th, no green like it
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 10:22:17 PM by Ian Andrew »

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2005, 10:22:32 PM »
The wind on Thursday was 2-3 clubs.  Playing up 10 and 11 was fairly long and I hit driver- 3 wood on 16.  Its a fantastic feel course, I basically threw away the yardage book on the back nine and just hit what felt good.

As for Pete, its his thoughts.  He came prepared with ariels of the first green and its not remotely shaped now like it was originally.

Pat_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2005, 10:17:45 AM »
Ian Andrew,

I think the yardage, at under 500 yards and the view from the elevated tee on # 3 lulls you to sleep.

A huge fairway expanse greets you as you climb from the second green to the third tee.

And the elevation fools you into thinking you can hit it farther than you think, thus taking the right side bunkers, low lying Sea Grape and the off fairway, sandy waste areas out of play.

The slightest head or crossing breeze from the east can play havoc with a gambling drive or drive hit down the shorter right side.

As I was addressing my drive the ball was oscillating on the tee and I got distracted, careless and drove right, into the Sea Grape, resulting in a lost ball.   I reteed, drove it down the right center, hit a three wood over the corner of the trees onto the front of the green and two putted for a six.

Had the three wood not carried the trees I don't know what I would have made, but, it wouldn't have been pretty.

My reason for describing my experience is to point out that it's not all about the green end, which can be traumatic.

Even with a good drive the second shot to the green looks benign, wide open, but, it can be treacherous, for if you go left, doom and gloom may follow.  If you go right, you have a very dicey recovery to contend with.

Both holes deceive the golfer with their seemingly benign look from the tee and fairway.

As you said, it's not until after golfers experience disastrous results that they realize that there's a lot more going on architecturally than they first thought.

Other golfers never see the dangers and chalk up their experience to bad luck.

Those type of golfers usually deem themselves, just "unlucky" players.

Pat_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2005, 10:21:10 AM »
Joel Stewart,

If you study the olde aerial in the locker room, you'd be hard pressed to state that there's very little Donald Ross in those greens today.

P.S.  The next time you're in the locker room, look up, above the lockers, and see if you recognize a familiar name next to 2005.

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2005, 10:25:22 AM »
P.S.  The next time you're in the locker room, look up, above the lockers, and see if you recognize a familiar name next to 2005.

There are some impressive names up there, I didn't know Tom Paul was playing at Seminole in 2005  ;D

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2005, 10:42:19 AM »
Patrick,
Good topic..as you all know, I am a great lover of Merion, and to me there are numerous holes on that hallowed grounds that fit Mr Mucci's question..innocent from the scorecard, and often from the tee..but walking off the green can have killed your round.
As Jamie has just mentioned on the penal course thread, that is what Merion does..you wonder how on earth you could have scored so highly from what you remember as being in good position...any shot at any time can reach out and grab you.
The 'benign" appearing 1st,7th,8th,12th...all spring to mind as holes that appear non troublesome...but as I can attest can ruin your day.

Pat_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2005, 10:49:43 AM »
Ian Andrew & Joel Stewart,

I think what adds to the lull factor is the wide open feeling one gets on the tee and on the golf course, as if spraying the ball will not result in dire consequences.

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 01:23:40 PM »


Pat:

I found this picture of #3 at Seminole taken from where I hit my drive.   I had maybe 210 to the hole which was on the front.  Next time I'm going to lay up with an 8 iron and then have a SW into the green.  Your thoughts?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 09:44:47 PM »


Pat:

I found this picture of #3 at Seminole taken from where I hit my drive.   I had maybe 210 to the hole which was on the front.  Next time I'm going to lay up with an 8 iron and then have a SW into the green.  Your thoughts?

Joel,

That's such an ideal tee shot that I'd have to go for it, understanding that I couldn't affort to be long, and don't want to go too far right.

At 210, uphill, probably 190-195 to the flag, I'd try to hit a 190 shot with a draw at the right side of the green, prefering to land it just short.
If properly executed, I'd have an eagle putt, if missed, I can still recover and have a shot at a birdie.  If I really miss, par should be attainable.  But, I sure as heck don't want to give up the opportunity for an eagle and a certain birdie.

What I can't see in the picture is the wind, although it looks as if it might be coming from the west to northwest.  Which is ideal if I want to hit the approach at the short, right side of the green with a little draw.

If the wind was from the north or northwest, I'd try to guard against going left.
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« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 10:58:07 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

SPDB

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2005, 10:11:54 PM »

What I can't see in the picture is the wind, although it looks as if it might be coming from the west to northwest.  Which is ideal if I want to hit the approach at the short, right side of the green with a little draw.


Pat - Wind out of the W/NW perfect for hitting a draw into this hole? You doubtless have infinitely better shot control than me, but in that wind, a draw? I'd be cooked....overcooked.  ;D

P.S. Congrats on the Better Ball Championship. Quite a notch.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 10:20:20 PM by SPDB »

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2005, 10:31:41 PM »
One of the (many) reasons these awful new courses which seem to want to have 18 'signature' holes are awful is the absence of the 'pushover' hole, or holes.
Pat, I think you're right (hmm, clears throat) I think we can let down our guard, or worse, get ahead of ourselves. These holes can play havoc with a round because, if you have a good round going, you can get to the tee and start thinking birdie - as opposed to - how do I play this shot.. and then if you don't make birdie you can lose momemtum.. And on a bad round you start thinking - well, I need a birdie here.. and we all know what pressing usually does to the card.

Almost non-sequitur - Got to love Sandy Lyle - that stuff never got to him as it never occured to him. When intervieved after his Masters victory he was asked what was he thinking when his ball was in the bunker on 18. He replied '7 iron'.

Back to the 'pushovers' - Not only all that, but they allow a course to breathe, so to speak - after 4 or 5 tough holes one might possibly exhale for a minute. Which for most of us is not a bad thing.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2005, 11:06:55 PM »
SPDB,

With that wind I'm looking to just make it to the front of the green with the perfect shot, based on a front hole location.
I don't want to hit if green high, but, I don't want to lay back as Joel suggested and leave myself a challenging  approach shot.

I'd rather be putting or chipping with a 4 or 6 iron, up to the hole.

By not going green high, chances are I don't have to worry about what horrors lurk to the left, and I can't reach the right greenside bunkers.  Being just under the hole is perfect, although if the hole is low left, that's a little dicey.

With a W, NW or N wind, You can bet that my left thumb will be on top of the shaft at the 12 O'Clock position.

Having my name on that board in the locker room is a great thrill.  One I wish I could share with my dad.

Llyod Cole,

I think getting ahead of ourselves, breaking our concentration from the shot at hand is a tendency on those score card "easy" holes.  While I was very happy with my play on 15 holes, I bogied three par 5's, the 3rd, 9th and 15th.  
Holes I shouldn't be over par on.

Relaxing a little and getting ahead of myself, combined with holes that provide more trouble then they project, definitely contributed to poor scores.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 11:08:58 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

SPDB

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2005, 11:21:04 PM »

Having my name on that board in the locker room is a great thrill.  One I wish I could share with my dad.


Pat - I'm sure you share it with him more than you know.

Larry_Keltto

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Re:Their bite is worse than their bark
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2005, 11:26:14 PM »
A hole that Ran described very nicely in his review of Deal: the 10th.

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