[Mike Benham]

Over the past few years, we have, either as part of a King's Putter or Dixie Cup un-official GCA events, played these courses with fellow GCAers.

These are all modern courses, designed by the new era of architects.

How do you compare these courses?

Their features, conditions, strategy, playability, etc.?

How do you rank them against each other and why?

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, I played all of them except Stevinson.  I missed Stevinson and Tobacco Rd gathering this year, but at least I have played TR a number of times.  

I think I would describe the feature that binds them together as a sense of craftsmanship.  None of them have a cookie-cutter feel.  Again, I don't know about Stevinson in that regard.

They all have an ideal maintenance meld of firm and fast.  Of course they can't achieve that in every season.  But, I think they are ideally conceived that way.  They all have forgivensness in fairway width, yet an array of hazards well placed and strategic. All of their hazards seem to go beyond just inside te dogleg, and short side of green. Their greens are all intelligently contoured with good approach strategies and alternatives in mind.

I think you could safely say that these courses reflect a sort of modern day tribute to a renaissance of classic golf ideals, with a bit of extra wow factors to make them attractive to daily fee player markets.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Cuscowilla hands down for me. I love the place. I did like Rustic and Barona a great deal. I would love for either of them to be a course near me that I could play all the time as well. I hear nothing but great things about Tobacco road as well. However, I did not get the same quality feedback on Stevinson Ranch.

[Bill_McBride]

I'll agree about Rustic Canyon and Cuscowilla playing fast and firm.  Haven't played Barona and hope to make up for that soon.  But you could hardly call Tobacco Road fast and firm based on last weekend's conditions, soggy and soft was more accurate, and I don't think just from Friday night's showers.  The greens were extremely receptive, to a fault.  I suspect they have overwatered due to a dry second half of the summer.

Stevinson Ranch.  I thought the conditions there were unlike the other courses because the rough was so overgrown, particularly with the winds prevalent at the time we played there in April.  That was a fearsome course if the driver was misbehaving!  

I think the common thread between Cuscowilla, Rustic Canyon and perhaps Tobacco Road is that these courses reflect some classic themes as practiced in modern architecture:  opportunity to use a variety of shots into greens, including shots played on the ground, and wide fairways to make that variety possible.  I didn't really have that feeling at Stevinson Ranch.

I think Pacific Dunes has a lot in common with Tobacco Road and Cuscowilla, maybe Barona too.  It's the way the wide fairways and contoured green sites required shots from the correct angles to maximize the enjoyment of many strategic options.   I didn't have that feeling at Stevinson Ranch except for a few holes.

[Lou_Duran]

Have not played TR.  I agree with Bill re: the rough at SR, but not regarding the variety and different types of shots it afforded.

The noted courses are all very good to excellent modern designs built within reasonable budgets.  For the most part, they are accessible to anyone.

The courses have interesting greens and surrounds, and a more natural (vs. manicured) look.  All require some thinking off the tee, and then again in approaching the greens (aiming at the middle is not optimal).

I would also add Wild Horse, Black Mesa, Pinion Hills, and perhaps Paa-Ko Ridge to this group.  In Texas, Rawls, Pine Dunes, Waterwood National, Raven Nest, and Sqaw Valley are also in this mold.

[rjsimper]

Of course, much like the SAT questions "What's next in this series?" this thread begs the question...

"What's next in this series?"  

[Bill_McBride]

Lou, read the last line of my post again.  We are in agreement about Stevinson Ranch, not in the league of Cuscowilla and Rustic Canyon.

Black Mesa and Apache Stronghold, the Talking Stick courses, come to mind as others along with Pacific Dunes that exemplify this modern evocation of classic design on the public side of golf today.  Great news is that indeed (as Yoda would say).  

[A_Clay_Man]

Only being able to compare Stevenson Ranch and Rustic Canyon, I find the two courses to be almost polar opposites in many aspects, yet, the end result of golfing each one, are much more similar. Enjoymentwise. They are both greater than the sum of their parts.

As for what's next?

I'll say this, just one more time, Ballyneal is the pinnacle of both the physical and artistic characteristics, golfers really emulate. Most, without even knowing why.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

What's this... I hear a strangely disembodied voice coming over the internet... I have to strain... maybe you can hear it also...


if you organize it, they will come
if you organize it, they will come
if you organize it, they will come


As for the rest, well... poor ole bastard stepchild Stevinson gets no credit.  Oh well, it's in some tough company here.  I'd rank them:

Cuscowilla
Rustic
Barona
SR

Haven't played TR.

Lou and others are right, btw - they each show a great step forward in fantastic golf available to one and all.

TH

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike - Of the courses in the original question I have only played Cuscowilla and Tobacco Road. Like Lou, I would add Black Mesa to this group. I'm crazy about Cuscowilla, but I would not group it in the same genre as Tobacco Road or Black Mesa. Cuscowilla is much more classic and subtle in design than TB or BM.

TB and BM visually grab you from the outset and never let go... they challenge your eyes, your mind, and your heart on virtually every shot. TB and BM are the only US courses (from any era) I have played in the past five years that make me yearn for a return visit. Yale would be a very close third.

[THuckaby2]

Interesting.

I would most definitely put each of Black Mesa, and Rustic Canyon, in a class with Cuscowilla - with none really surpassing the others (although I did put Cusc 1 and RC 2, it is VERY close).

I loved Black Mesa.  A lot.  A lot a lot a lot a big lot.

Just not more than Cuscowilla.

I yearn to return to each of them.

[Joel_Stewart]

Did anyone mention Pasatiempo or was that unofficial?   I would place all of those mentioned far behind Pasa.  

[THuckaby2]

Good point, Joel.  ALL of these events were "unofficial."  So yes, Pasa ought to count as well.

And yes, it is clearly #1 in this group.  I refer you to the "Pasatiempo restoration" topic for some photographic evidence.

One thing though:  Pasa most definitely also stands out in price compared to the others, all of which are far more "affordable".  That is if that part counts.  And I think it should.

[Bill_McBride]

I think the distinction that separates Pasatiempo from the rest is the definition -- all the others are modern classics to one extent or another, with playing characteristics attributable to the classics.

Pasa is one of the classics being reflected in the design of the others.

Of the bunch, Stevinson Ranch is the odd course out, IMHO.  Of course Barona isn't included because I haven't played it yet.

[Mike Benham]

A few thoughts ...

Yes, I mentioned "modern" with the intention of leaving out Pasatiempo ... and I probably should have included Black Mesa in the group ...

Each of these courses were designed by, at least at the time they built the course, a non-famous architect (non-Jones, non-Fazio, non-Nicklaus, etc), 2nd tier, maybe even 3rd but not second rate.

Each of these courses is remotely located ... which is both an advantage and disadvantage ...

Each is public, non-resort (although Cuscowilla might classify differently and Stevinson's Cowboy Poetry puts it in a class by itself).

[Jason Blasberg]

Having only played Cuscowilla and Tobacco Road I give the nod to Cuscowilla.  I will say, however, that I've only played TR once and have played C a couple of dozen times.  I definitely want to get back to TR soon b/c it really knocked my socks off in a lot of places.

Also, I would say that numbers 4 through 12 at TR is one of the best nine hole stretches that I've played in a long time.    

Cuscowilla is certainly more subtle than TR but then again so is everything.  The TR property limits it much more so than C's, especially the wetlands at TR (which were incorporated extremely well IMO).  TR is a very difficult walk whereas C flows nicely.  I think TR has more mind blowingly good holes than does C, for instance, TR's 9-12th are better than anything at C.  

However, TR has some glaring weaknesses that C does not have.  For instance, I think the 13th hole at TR is kind of hokie until you reach the green (which is my kind of quirky good) and I found the short par 4s at TR, 5 and 16, not very drivable (especially number 16, just forget about driver there).  I happen to be of the opinion that unless a short 4 is drivable it's a waste because forced layups with long irons are no fun.  

In addition, I found the vast number of blind shots at TR to be a weakness, especially by the time I got to my approach shot on 15 to a middle pin location that was hidden by the inward pinching greenside bunker.  I really enjoy blind shots but I was physically and mentally exhausted by the middle of 15, a bit too much IMO.  I also found number 18 at TR a bit of a silly finishing hole.  The combination of the blind tee shot and blind second is too much.  I'm not sure how much dirt was moved at TR and I'm not sure if the hillock on the left of 18 that obscures the green on your approach was there or was built but it's a bit much for me.  

Two final observations re: TR

1) it was the longest playing 6532 yd par 71 I've ever seen and I was hitting the driver great.  I shot 38 (three putting 2 and 3 and doubling the 5 par 4th by trying to hit a three iron onto the green from between the trees from the left side of the fairway instead of laying up for a wedge third shot), 44, mostly because my knees buckled on the back nine (I walked carrying my own bag and was wiped out by 15).  So even though TR plays mentally tough from the back tees it's not difficult to score there, especially if you're lag putting is on;

and  2) it's practically a desert golf course with a tremendous emphasis on hitting targets, and, IMO forces too many layups and doesn't permit enough swashbuckling heroic plays.  

[David_Madison]

I've played only Tobacco Road and Cuscowilla of the group, so will compare just those two.

Tobacco Road is more visually arresting and clearly more intimidating and dangerous to any player who can't consistently break 80. You can't scrape it around and survive. But to a good player, it's a whole lot easier to play and score low than it looks. Unless they get freaky with the cupping and juice the greens, there will be lots and lots of birdies. I find the course to be one that I enjoy seeing a couple of times a year, as a break from the typical Carolina's thing. But I wouldn't want to play it too often, as it would start feeling repetitive, constraining, and tedious.

Cuscowilla is almost the opposite. My 13-year old son who flies it 180 - 200 and sprays the ball at times can have a wonderful and not frustrating time on the course. From the right tees you can bump it along the ground  and still score alright. But play it back and set the course up tough but fair, and good players are going to have their hands full. You'll see a lot of tap-in bogeys and an ocassional train wreck. I could play the course over and over again and not be bored, not feel constrained, and feel that there's plenty of variety day-to-day with the shotmaking opportunities that are built into the course.

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