[Mike Benham]

Andy - nice comments and I think #6 is really #1 for the 90s shooter.

[Brent Hutto]

Sixth, and this may be a stretch--I wonder if the 90 guy generally has the mental strength to 'carry on' when he hits it in one of the weird places, as it may be easier for him to be overwhelmed? As opposed to the better player who may look at it as an opportunity, or at least may think it is a rarity.

This is one of the places where there are bogey golfers and then there are bogey golfers. I think of myself as the latter rather than the former. I've played enough golf to know that my shooting 95 rather than 75 is mostly because of the 20 strokes I waste by poor execution. If I know that a blind 8-iron shot over a scrub-covered hill will land on the green then I'm just as likely to hit a good 8-iron over that hill as I would be on a wide-open field (either way there's a 1 in 4 chance that I'll duff it).

Often I'll play with guys about my same handicap level whose best shots are much, much better than mine. But once they've hit the ball in trouble on a hole, they won't make another decent swing until the next tee (if then). Those guys have no chance at Tobacco Road, no matter what tees they play. It's the kind of course where if you're looking around for trouble to think about there's always something right there to freak out about.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom Huckaby,
Take a look at #13 from the course website.  The fairway is actually well below the green, so all you see is the top of the stick unless the pin is right in the middle.  Everything funnels, so if you can get the ball up in the air, it is an easy shot, and generally with a partial wedge of some sort.  A curiosity for the better player, real trouble for the bogey or worse golfer.

http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole13.html

[THuckaby2]

Brent - you are the "smart" bogey golfer to whom I earlier referred.  Unfortunately there are few of your ilk, so few that the course rating system barely acknowledges your existence.

AGC - that is one neat looking golf hole.  And I see what you mean... for course rating, the blindness effects both scratch and bogey the same... but the carry over gunch effects bogey far more.

TH

[Mike Benham]

AG -

Don't take this the wrong way, but have you played Tobacco Road?  

The flagstick is only visable when it is in a very small section of the green depending on your location in the fairway (any hole location from the center to the left side of the green is not visable from any part of the fairway).  The sand hills are tall enough so that you barely see the top of the extended length flagstick.  The day we played it, you could not see the top of the flagstick at all, until you rounded the corner walking on to the green or you were 30-yards short of the green on the right edge of the fairway, not what I would consider prime layup area.

Second, I think it is a pretty flat green when compared to the other greens.  There is no backstops to bring your shot back towards the center of the green.

Mike

[Brent Hutto]

Second, I think it is a pretty flat green when compared to the other greens.  There is no backstops to bring your shot back towards the center of the green.

Hey, there's a nice embankment with rough behind the green that will stop the ball if you're counting on a backboard. That green starts looking mighty small when you're chipping from that downslope  

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, from the #2 tees we played the carries were mostly in the 200-210 range. No problem for the young  bucks.  

[THuckaby2]

Tom, from the #2 tees we played the carries were mostly in the 200-210 range. No problem for the young  bucks.  

True.  And those carries are the absolute PERFECT distance to make for low course rating, high slope.  Bogey can't make the carry (more than 175), scratch doesn't have it as much of an issue at all (his threshold is 225).

TH

[George Pazin]

AG -

Don't take this the wrong way, but have you played Tobacco Road?

The flagstick is only visable when it is in a very small section of the green depending on your location in the fairway (any hole location from the center to the left side of the green is not visable from any part of the fairway).  The sand hills are tall enough so that you barely see the top of the extended length flagstick.  The day we played it, you could not see the top of the flagstick at all, until you rounded the corner walking on to the green or you were 30-yards short of the green on the right edge of the fairway, not what I would consider prime layup area.

Second, I think it is a pretty flat green when compared to the other greens.  There is no backstops to bring your shot back towards the center of the green.

Mike

Back when I played TR - '99, right after it opened - the flagstick on #13 was SUPER long, so that you could see the top of it no matter where you were. (At least, that's my recollection, my memory has deteriorated horribly with the lack of sleep for the last 20 months!)

Some other thoughts -

- Playing TR from the forward most tees is beyond bizarre. I did so with my wife (then girlfriend - to date, it's the only course she's played - how's that for a one hit wonder?) for the first 4 holes, and I teed off with my 8 iron for 3 of the first 4 holes, for fear that I'd run out of fairway. Weird. I did move back to the 3rd set of tees for a while, then eventually the next to last set, until moving to the waybacks on 17 and 18. Never did manage to hit my wedge short enough to land on 17, after 3 tries I stopped torturing my playing partners.

- The toughest thing about the course to me has not really been mentioned thus far in this discussion: the shallow nature of quite a few of the greens. No problem for someone who controls his distances well, but very difficult for a high handicapper, regardless of which tees he plays.

- Someone posted a side shot of the 15th green on the other thread. Did they knock down the hill fronting the left side of the green and replace it with a bunker? It looked more visible than I recall.

[Brent Hutto]

Someone posted a side shot of the 15th green on the other thread. Did they knock down the hill fronting the left side of the green and replace it with a bunker? It looked more visible than I recall.

Is that the green like a twisted potato chip? The hole with alternate fairways? If so, there's not much visibility to the left side of the green. The hill fronting the green on the left has a big waste bunker that captured my third shot and left a hell of a explosion shot to a left hole location.

[Pete Buczkowski]

- The toughest thing about the course to me has not really been mentioned thus far in this discussion: the shallow nature of quite a few of the greens. No problem for someone who controls his distances well, but very difficult for a high handicapper, regardless of which tees he plays.

Hi George - you and I have discussed this one before  
Tobacco Road Shallow Greens

- Someone posted a side shot of the 15th green on the other thread. Did they knock down the hill fronting the left side of the green and replace it with a bunker? It looked more visible than I recall.

Forrest talked about this on Saturday night.  Originally, they did not own the land in the front left of the green.  When they purchased it, they knocked down the hill somewhat to make the left side somewhat visible.  Also, they never used to use the extreme left pin placement.  Since you haven't played there since '99, you wouldn't have seen that one before.

[George Pazin]

I remember discussing it before, Pete, just didn't see anyone else mention it on this thread.

I'm glad to hear the hill obscuring the left side of 15 is gone - it seemed a little too quirky to me (a lover of quirk, most of the time).

Have there been any other substantive changes to the course over the years?

[A.G._Crockett]

AG -

Don't take this the wrong way, but have you played Tobacco Road?

The flagstick is only visable when it is in a very small section of the green depending on your location in the fairway (any hole location from the center to the left side of the green is not visable from any part of the fairway).  The sand hills are tall enough so that you barely see the top of the extended length flagstick.  The day we played it, you could not see the top of the flagstick at all, until you rounded the corner walking on to the green or you were 30-yards short of the green on the right edge of the fairway, not what I would consider prime layup area.

Second, I think it is a pretty flat green when compared to the other greens.  There is no backstops to bring your shot back towards the center of the green.

Mike

Mike,
What is the right way to take that?

When I have played TR, the flagstick on #13 was long enough to serve as equipment for the pole vault; probably the longest flagstick I've ever seen.  Looking at the picture, I should have clarified or restated the "funnel" idea; I didn't mean that it was a punchbowl green or something like that.  I was thinking about the fact that the green is surrounded in such a way as to prevent the ball from running a long way off on a mishit shot.  In any event, it is a hole that helps me understand what Tom was trying to explain to me.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

PS Did anyone last weekend hit 13 in 2?

Andy-

  I didn't think the risk was worth the reward; plus, I don't have that shot in my bag, at least last weekend  

Friday, with Peter and Dale, I hit driver along the very edge of the right trees into the neck--had 202 in--Sunday, hit 4 wood to the area just before the neck-had 225 in--in the fairway both times.  Never gave going in two a thought.  In my mind, there's too much risk involved with the narrow green and those hills all around, plus the uneven lie.  Unless, of course, I could hit a 4 iron like a pitching wedge.  

I think 4 and 11 provide much more reasonable options to have a go in two--4 much more than 11.  I'd be interested if anyone hit #1 in 2.  Lot more room there to miss.  

Overall, I think it presents a good test--I'd like to hear more from the low single digits as to whether it's too easy.  It was my first experience with real target golf--placing the shot in a specific location.  Holes 5, 9,12,13,14,15,16 were all placement holes, in my mind-otherwise, the non-flat lies and angles made it very tough.  

I also thought, as you hit the tee ball longer, it got a little more tempting--i.e. "I've got 178 into 4???...I've got 178 into 11?...I've got 210 into 13?..." that sort of thing.  So it was an interesting test of golf, and a great contrast to PN/MP

[T_MacWood]

It very well might be, but its in good company.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I cannot honestly say I have read every word of this, but I think I have a gist.. and I just had a thought. I played Birkdale a couple of years ago, alone, with the caddymaster, who was unable to persuade the secretary to let me play from the medal tees. I am not a long hitter, I'd say I'm  a Fred Funkish amateur and yet, from the whites, I was hitting 5 iron off the tee on far too many holes.. and I wasn't picking the club.

[peter_p]

Not including myself in the class of good players, Tobacco Raod isn't too easy for good players. Sure you can get the 5s with birdie, but loose shots potentail disasters make up the difference. Here is wahat the yardage book recommends.
Back (ripper) tees: 5 hdcp and lower.
       (disc)  tees: 5.1-14, seniors 6 and lower
       (plow) tees: 14-23, seniors 6-15.
Sure many greens have backstops and siderails. While #7 helped an approach down to birdie range, my par putt from the top had me putting 120 degrees away from the hole and I coulnd't get it inside eight feet. When rating the greens are trisected into smaller targets. If you're on your game fiine, but......... One thought, did Mike design some of the greens knowing they were going to have a three day rotation of hole locations. It certainyl looks lilke it to me.

Playing Royal New Kent and Tobacco Road on consecutive days will certainly improve anyone's ball-striking.

Bill McB - the carry to #2 is 195 from the discs.

[Bill_McBride]

Peter, I know, I know.  I hit a low line drive that carried 194.75 yards, right into the far side of the road/cart path, and the ball dropped back onto the road.  

This should not be a surprise, you watched me mishit tee balls all day Saturday!  

[RJ_Daley]

I jumped into this thread late because I wasn't with this particular group (much to my disappointment).  But, I do know Tobacco Road and it is among my all time favorites.  

I didn't read all the threads, but I think Brad Tufts, Mike Dugger and Huck have it right on their points.  

What probably hasn't been thought of enough is the intentions of the developers (the Stewarts) and the architect and his crew concerning the vision thing.  

I think the Stewarts picked and supported Mike Strantz in his radical ideas about the design of this course to their credit and tribute to Strantz's vision for a visually intimidating, thrilling yet playable golf course for the type of clientele that would for the most part be vacation resort types.  Tobacco Road has its greatest effect on those infrequent players, and hightens the thrill factor because most players are mid to high handicaps and don't see the sort of things, or imagine or plan their shots to the wise and skilled level that the low handi good players do.  But, when those mid and higher cappers finish playing, they "realise" that they left some shots out there that they should have made, and can't wait to have another go.  The design leaves strong imagery in your mind and beckens you to try again because you "know" you can do it.

Thus, it is an easy course, or not so terribly difficult course for those good players.  But, not too easy.  I think most good players would say they enjoyed their round at Tobbaco Road greatly, perhaps because the played well and scored low and weren't thrown off by the visuals.  I would be thrilled too if I could go out and shoot 2-4 shots below my handicap level, even on a first or second time playing the course.  A scratch having a 68-70 shot day on a course that can jump up and burn them on one or two loose shots and cause a big number on almost any hole, can hardly pooh pooh the experience and say it was boring or not enjoyable, it seems to me.

I as a mid capper, feel fairly confident that if I played there often as a local, I would probably do quite well once one learns to match the risk rewards to your playing ability and set the visual stuff aside.  

Bill, don't you think that missing the carry on 2 by a half yard was the sort of thing that you know if you play it next time, and just make a nice easy swing, you will easily carry it?  I'm pretty sure you won't lay up down the right bail out strip the next time you play there either.   That is the thing about the course.  It probably becomes enjoyably easier, once you get comfortable and familiar.  You still have challenging shots that are going to bite you if you miss, but you can make almost every one of them by just playing within yourself and not overreach.  18 carry off the tee is the greatest example of this.  You do need to play the correct tee there.  Bill, I know you can make that carry from the discs, and more so than #2, you will need to gut it out and concentrate on that last hole.  But, again, that is the real fun of the course Strantz has left for us.  

I think that Forrest Fezler and Mike Strantz really hit a high note of collaboration in this design, and gave the developers exactly what they were looking for based on the clientele they knew would be their market.

They only got caught on one negative design aspect in my opinion.  That is the longish walk from 14 to 15.  But, I got my wide load around it walking-carrying.  So, it ain't that bad...

[RJ_Daley]

Right you are Sean.  It has been a while since I was back there.  The walks as in 13 green to 14 weren't so far as they were awkward as I remember it.  There are RR tie steps up and down some steep sand hummocks.  But even though I'm about 5 years older, I'd still relish a chance to hoof it at TR, if it were under say 90*  

[Andy Hughes]

Andy
  I didn't think the risk was worth the reward; plus, I don't have that shot in my bag, at least last weekend
Friday, with Peter and Dale, I hit driver along the very edge of the right trees into the neck--had 202 in--Sunday, hit 4 wood to the area just before the neck-had 225 in--in the fairway both times.  Never gave going in two a thought.  In my mind, there's too much risk involved with the narrow green and those hills all around, plus the uneven lie.  Unless, of course, I could hit a 4 iron like a pitching wedge.

Doug, I would tend to agree with you--it is very intimidating and so much can go wrong so easily. But then, why would you hit driver off the tee along the edge of the trees if you aren't going to have a go?
The one time I tried in two was a scramble round, and then there isn't much fear.

I think 4 and 11 provide much more reasonable options to have a go in two--4 much more than 11.  I'd be interested if anyone hit #1 in 2.  Lot more room there to miss.  

Especially 4, as a decent tee shot can leave you with 180 in. Somehow, 11 always scares me--the fear of missing just a little and ending up at the bottom of that incredibly deep bunker, or hitting it well, taking one hard bounce and going into the back bunker and having to then hit toward that selfsame monster bunker!
I did hit #1 in 2 once.  There doesn't seem to be much to scare one out of going for it, though if I found the right side traps once I might feel very differently.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Andy
  I didn't think the risk was worth the reward; plus, I don't have that shot in my bag, at least last weekend
Friday, with Peter and Dale, I hit driver along the very edge of the right trees into the neck--had 202 in--Sunday, hit 4 wood to the area just before the neck-had 225 in--in the fairway both times.  Never gave going in two a thought.  In my mind, there's too much risk involved with the narrow green and those hills all around, plus the uneven lie.  Unless, of course, I could hit a 4 iron like a pitching wedge.

Doug, I would tend to agree with you--it is very intimidating and so much can go wrong so easily. But then, why would you hit driver off the tee along the edge of the trees if you aren't going to have a go?

Andy-

On Friday, I think the tees were back a little bit, and aiming for the widest portion of the fairway, a good drive of mine would have run through into the woods.  Plus, I pushed the drive a little; it came out ok    I originally thought it was going to end up in the trees in the corner.  

Sunday, the tees were up slightly-I had to hit 4 wood into the neck (over the second wooden path).  Laying up, into the wider part of the fairway with my 220 club, my hybrid, would have left me too far back for an easier layup--my strategy was to get down as far as possible, to have the easiest layup and then approach; I wasn't hitting my mid and long irons well at all, I had just dropped the previous two holes to fall back to all square, and desperately needed a par or birdie to win the hole, especially with 14 up next, and then the closing stretch.  So it worked out.  That's such a small green, and the hills all around are covered in junk--long grasses and such--I'm not that good!  

The one time I tried in two was a scramble round, and then there isn't much fear.

I think 4 and 11 provide much more reasonable options to have a go in two--4 much more than 11.  I'd be interested if anyone hit #1 in 2.  Lot more room there to miss.  

Especially 4, as a decent tee shot can leave you with 180 in. Somehow, 11 always scares me--the fear of missing just a little and ending up at the bottom of that incredibly deep bunker, or hitting it well, taking one hard bounce and going into the back bunker and having to then hit toward that selfsame monster bunker!
I did hit #1 in 2 once.  There doesn't seem to be much to scare one out of going for it, though if I found the right side traps once I might feel very differently.

I thought about going for #1 in 2--especially because I hit a reasonably good drive on Sunday, found the fairway, and had a look through the neck of the second set of dunes.  Problem was, I had a slightly awkward lie, kind of downhill and ball above feet.  So it made more sense to lay up just short of the second set of dunes with iron.  Plus, it was the second shot of the day.  I was still a little nervous.  

If I had a slightly flatter lie, or maybe a slight uphill lie, I probably would have given it a go; but Remy had given me a window of opportunity with his second shot, so I needed to play safe and play for par.    

I did try for #4 in two on Sunday--had a green light, left side of the fairway, 179 in--but hit a bad shot.  

11 was a no-brainer, especially with that wall in front of the green facing the sandpit.  As we say up here, Fuhgeddaboutit!  

[David_Madison]

Good players sort through the intimidating visuals much more easily than the bogey player. Tobacco Road from a shotmaking perspective is all about trust. Good players striking it well, knowing the needed direction, distance, and areas to avoid are able to keep it around par fairly easily. But a good player not striking it well and therefore not trusting his swing, is going to be in for a lot tougher time than he would be at more traditional courses. There's just more there to screw with your head, magnifying the effects of a shaky game. After two or three rounds out there, once you have a handle on the artistic visuals and the Oz-like nature of the place, it's just shotmaking. The only true difficulty lies in the very shallow greens, which would be a shotmaking issue anywhere. Every par-5 out there is a birdie hole, with all but one of them reasonably easy to reach in two. Half or more of the other holes are wedge approaches. Keep driver in the bag on the short 4's, have decent distance control from 135 yards on in, and it's just not that tough. Just look at the holes from the greens going back to the tees, and you'll see just how truly generous the playing areas are.

Now all that being said, it's still a wonderfully fun place to play, and perhaps one of the best mental control examinations you'll see for any level of player anywhere.

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