[T_MacWood]

TE
No point, just adding historic perpective.

It goes back to the original point of the thread. Clearly the hole is not perfect in Darren's view, in fact it is quite flawed. He questioned if the namers had an ironic bent. To help answer that question and clarify what actually occured, Dan King brought up the history of the hole. My post was intended to explain why the hole (and the course) was change...the course was very short. Carry on.

[Robert Thompson]

Sure there are some quirky moments at Berwick (#1, #13, and #18 are clearly full of "quirk"), but I still don't think of the golf course in the same way I'd think of, for example, Crail, which I would consider far more quirky.
Is North Berwick great? I think it has several all-world holes (#2, #3, #13 and #15), and also a number of very straight forward ones (#8 and #9).
One can debate the individual merits of Berwick's holes, but there's one thing I can clearly say -- there are few places in the world where I've played golf that I had more fun than this fascinating piece of linksland.
I know I've played better courses that I'd gladly turn down for another round at Berwick.

[Robert Thompson]

Sean: Why is the 18th, "funky?" Well at 274 yards, it is almost a par three. I hit 3-iron onto the green the first time I played it. Were it not for the cars on the right, I think everyone would try for the green.
It does appear to me to be simply a way of getting you back to the clubhouse. The land is not terrific, though it isn't as strange as the first.
But don't get me wrong -- I still found the hole fun to play.

[Yannick Pilon]

Certainly not the strongest hole at North Berwick, but it does challenge you on every shot.  When you play the hole for the first time, its just guess work and you almost feel like you need to play on the fourth green to be safe since you can't see much on the left.

Thought I would share these two shots with you guys....

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm luvin this hole more every moment.

Thanks for sharing Yannick.   I already have Carlyle's pic from earlier in the thread co-opted for my background.  

Darren,

I guess I love holes that make people feel uncomfortable and confused.  

I tried yesterday to post one of the 16th at Inniscrone in PA that is similar in some respects.

Good thread!

[Peter Flory]

Does anyone here know why the cross bunker on this hole was removed?  It looks like it was one of the great features on the course (so impressive that it was the subject of a painting at least). 

[Niall C]

Peter


Are you sure the photo and the painting are the one and the same bunker ?


The cross-bunker in the photo could well be the Perfection bunker (still existing). The bunker in the painting is more difficult to place. It could be the same bunker but if so then I think the artist is using a bit of artistic licence to get that angle, unless of course there was a bunker on the right of the green ?!


Niall

[Sean_A]

The cross bunker in the painting certainly looks like it is Perfection, same for the photo. Although, I never knew there was a cross bunker there. I thought it was a bunker more like on Redan.

Ciao

[James Brown]

Hated this hole the first time I played it because I didn’t understand it.  Loved it after the second playing.  It’s a very good hole.

[Peter Flory]

Peter


Are you sure the photo and the painting are the one and the same bunker ?


The cross-bunker in the photo could well be the Perfection bunker (still existing). The bunker in the painting is more difficult to place. It could be the same bunker but if so then I think the artist is using a bit of artistic licence to get that angle, unless of course there was a bunker on the right of the green ?!


Niall

The painting referenced the Perfection bunker.  Some famous characters in it as well.  I'd love to play the version that he painted. 
https://www.golfspast.com/art/antique-prints/view/productdetails/virtuemart_product_id/2250/virtuemart_category_id/148.html

[Tim Gallant]

Peter,


It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

[/size][size=78%]

[Chris Macios]

Enjoyed reading this old 2005 post, glad someone revitalized it.


I’m in the “14th hole is what golf is all about” camp but it was interesting to read the 15 year old opinions of many on this site! To me strategy = drive it close to those cross bunkers and have a little chip/wedge that you can control into a blind green, maybe holding it. Lay up or play right and you have a very had time staying on the green. Perfectly strategic (and fun) to me.

[Sean_A]

Peter,

It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

Tim

Is that rear bunker on the 4th the one being mentioned for restoration?

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Dan your post reminds me of an episode of Frazier.  Niles and Frazier have just eaten at the latest hot restaurant and they are debating how a place that served such excellent wines and superlative food could have let itself down in some small detail.

Martin chimes in and says it sounds like the meal was perfect. They round on him and say didn’t you hear us, they messed up the (I can't remember the detail)?

Martin then says "No for you two that meal was perfection. You're slapping yourselves on the back for discovering such a place and because you've found something to criticise you’ll be able to talk about it for years."

I often think of Frazier when I'm reading GCA!

A wonderful spot on post that merits a bump. As to the 14th at NB, I played it twice. Standing alone, I think it is an excellent hole that from any position requires a well played second. As part of the 13-18 sequence, it fits, well, perfectly because it adds a different flavor of strategic quirk. That run of holes is one of my favorites.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Peter,


It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

[size=78%]


An aside:  is all of that wrinkly undulation on the approach to the 4th still there, or has a lot of it been smoothed over the years?  I don't remember all of that.[/size]

[Tim Gallant]

Peter,

It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

Tim

Is that rear bunker on the 4th the one being mentioned for restoration?

Ciao

Hi Sean!


Not that I'm aware of - though maybe you know something I don't! I do love how this shows how the fairways were much wider, which increased the sphere of influence of the 4th greenside bunkers on the 14th hole drives, and if you look closely, the green at 4 seemed to wrap around in front of 5 tee. Pretty awesome.

[Tim Gallant]

Peter,


It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

[size=78%]


An aside:  is all of that wrinkly undulation on the approach to the 4th still there, or has a lot of it been smoothed over the years?  I don't remember all of that.[/size]

Hi Tom!


The ground now appears to be as is from this photo. The only difference is now it is a kind of light rough (I do say lite, almost a 1st cut) whereas the image appears to be fairway. The other thing that is different is now, short left of the green there is buckthorn, which wasn't there. Someone may have planted it there to hide the maintenance path, but I think it should be removed.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Peter,


It almost for sure is the cross bunker that is still in play today, albeit they have been split into two. Here's an aerial of the hole from 1929, so the images you have are likely showing the bunkers in the lower left part of the image

[size=78%]


An aside:  is all of that wrinkly undulation on the approach to the 4th still there, or has a lot of it been smoothed over the years?  I don't remember all of that.[/size]

Hi Tom!


The ground now appears to be as is from this photo. The only difference is now it is a kind of light rough (I do say lite, almost a 1st cut) whereas the image appears to be fairway. The other thing that is different is now, short left of the green there is buckthorn, which wasn't there. Someone may have planted it there to hide the maintenance path, but I think it should be removed.

Excellent find Tim.


To my eye the 3 bunkers between 4 and 14 appear to be (at least equally) facing 14? This suggest the fairway was as close to the edge as could be.  I know its a difficult recovery from down there!


The 4th green is the one I've never felt looked as natural as the others, and in that photo it looks 'new'. The photos has a curious white line around the front and north sides of the front portion. Can't believe it was a ridge, only thing I can think is that it was new turf was burned off?  With the bumpy ground short, you would have to fly it to the green and maybe pin positions in front of the bunkers are lost ones?
Also to my eye what would today be the rear raised section is not smooth? Perhaps it was not then part of the green?

Agree re the Buckthorn.  I want to be there when it goes. I have quite a distinctive 'cheater line' on my balls and I want to reclaim at least a dozen - mostly lost in medals!

[Niall C]

Tony


Re 4th, CK Hutchison proposed following changes which were carried over 1932 and 1933


"The fourth hole to be played from the south western side of the Redan tee, which can be easily enlarged by raising the unused portion next the wall. The right hand side of the existing green to be extended out the old lower tee for the fifth hole, which will allow the bottom of the pin to be visible from the tee. A small pot bunker to be made in the angle of the hill to the right of what will be the entrance to the extended part of the green. The spur at this point to be rounded off in order to give a slightly wider entrance. The turf to be lifted from the left half the present green for forming the extension, and modified rough to replace it."


I tried to look up the date of the photo that Tim posted but for some reason I can't find it on the Britain from Above website but I suspect the date might be about that time.


Niall

[Tim Gallant]

Tony


Re 4th, CK Hutchison proposed following changes which were carried over 1932 and 1933


"The fourth hole to be played from the south western side of the Redan tee, which can be easily enlarged by raising the unused portion next the wall. The right hand side of the existing green to be extended out the old lower tee for the fifth hole, which will allow the bottom of the pin to be visible from the tee. A small pot bunker to be made in the angle of the hill to the right of what will be the entrance to the extended part of the green. The spur at this point to be rounded off in order to give a slightly wider entrance. The turf to be lifted from the left half the present green for forming the extension, and modified rough to replace it."


I tried to look up the date of the photo that Tim posted but for some reason I can't find it on the Britain from Above website but I suspect the date might be about that time.


Niall

Niall,


I'm not 100% sure, but I noted 1929 when I saved the image to my desktop. Though it could absolutely be a few years later. Here's one from the 40s:

[Sean_A]

Tony


Re 4th, CK Hutchison proposed following changes which were carried over 1932 and 1933


"The fourth hole to be played from the south western side of the Redan tee, which can be easily enlarged by raising the unused portion next the wall. The right hand side of the existing green to be extended out the old lower tee for the fifth hole, which will allow the bottom of the pin to be visible from the tee. A small pot bunker to be made in the angle of the hill to the right of what will be the entrance to the extended part of the green. The spur at this point to be rounded off in order to give a slightly wider entrance. The turf to be lifted from the left half the present green for forming the extension, and modified rough to replace it."


I tried to look up the date of the photo that Tim posted but for some reason I can't find it on the Britain from Above website but I suspect the date might be about that time.


Niall

Niall,

I'm not 100% sure, but I noted 1929 when I saved the image to my desktop. Though it could absolutely be a few years later. Here's one from the 40s:

That rear bunker on 4 is wild. It's not the shape I imagined when looking at hollow today. It looks as though it is a bunker for the 14th. Of course these days that large hollow is horrendous rough.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Tim

That would make sense. CKH refers to extending the 4th green on to the old (ie. no longer used) lower tee of the 5th hole which is why it looks so rough in that 1929 photo even though the land is clearly formed into a platform. The bunker Sean refers to would have been partly to protect folk on the tee from players coming the other way and also to pick up the odd topped shot off the fifth tee.

Niall. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Here's one from the 40s:

Great photo. After the extension to the rear, that front section is still all green, would like to see more if it restored, it might help do away with the manufactured look the green currently suffers a little from. 
And get the rear bunker reinstated. As Sean says, beyond the green is currently one of the worst places on the course to be.

[MCirba]

I would completely agree with my replies #14 and #15 from 2005.

Good to see I'm still in agreement with myself.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's a larger version of the complete painting.  All the background topographic features are in the right place from the perspective of somewhere near the current bunkers on Perfection.  Bass Rock and the stone wall and gate to the left.  Berwick Law, the Marine Hotel to the right and the Redan bunkers up the middle.  Even the maintenance building just ove rthe golfers heads.



What's perplexing is that the golfers seem to be playing at right angles to the bunker.  That would not be consistent with the current location of the bunkers and green as the green is angled off to the right of the current bunkers.  Also, there doesn't appear to be a large ridge behind the bunker in the painting as there is behind the current bunkers.

There doesn't ppear to be a ridge behind the bunker in the old picture either although that picture was taken in a direction a bit to the left of the painting's direction.  The island in the background is Craigleith which is to the left of Bass Rock.



Here are larger images from Britain from Above showing the area in 1929 and 1953.





In the old painting the bunker bleeds off to the right and down towards the stone wall and Redan tee.  I'f speculate that the bunker section in the painting and the old photo was not where the current bunkers are but was to the right of them down the hollow towards the stone wall and Redan tee.  You can see that area in the 1953 aerial.  The dunes there are not so high and would be more consistent with the background and the right angle direction of play in the painting and old picture.

For what its worth I'm a fan of the hole and in fact the whole back nine of NBWL.



 

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