[Michael Moore]

It is not required to determine intent.  Did she just make a mistake or did she cheat?

Bamberger took great pains to say that Wie just goofed up and made an innocent, unintentional bad drop on the good green grass of Bighorn.

Likewise, the PGA Tour fell over itself claiming that Estaban Toledo's nice drop at Disney was just one of those things.

Whatever happened to the good old days where a player would just come out and flat out tell the other guy to stop cheating, a la Watson vs. Player in the 1983 Skins?

Have you ever got all up in a fellow competitor's face?

[Peter Galea]

Yup, on the 15th hole while my partner and I were 2 up on the back and 3 up on the 18. One oppponent, who's ball was on the green walked up to his ball while the other three of us searched for a ball. I saw him move his coin closer to the hole while he picked the ball up. Using a beCu Ping putter he appeared to tap down a ball mark up near the hole, but in actuallity he slid a penny off the back of the copper colored putter. I called him on it immediately. I told him what he had done, that he was a cheater, all bets were off and I would never play golf with him again.
My partner was a little peeved that I had given up the money we were sure of winning. Oh well.
You are welcome to win all the money I wager, but don't dare try and cheat me out of it.
Liars, cheats and thieves-slime.
I've been called a rules cop many times, however I never took offense considering who was calling me it.
Nobody I know would play poker without the rules, why do some feel golf is exempt?

[Lance Rieber]

  Michael, In college we were playing in an event at Sandpiper and a guy in our group cheated 3 times in one round.  The first incident was him making an seven on a hole and and claiming he only made 6.  Three holes later we were trying to locate his ball in some incredibly thick rough.  I was about 30yds ahead on the opposite side of the fairway.  I came over and found his ball, in very deep rough but when I got back to my ball and looked back his was sitting up so high you could have hit a driver.  Well regardless to say we were a little but pissed and two others in the group and I refused to sign the card.  It was pretty heated at the end of the round with the coaches and players and I think he was disqualified for the statements of the three of us.  It happens probably more than we realize.
Lance

[Andy Troeger]

As a coach in girls high school golf I once had to deal with a girl who was trying to shave 2-3 strokes off her score--on every hole! Take a minute to think how bad you have to be to try to get away with that one?

Unfortunately even among some of the non-terrible (I won't call them good) players there are rampant cheaters that I feel have to be monitored so that my golfers can play without feeling they have to be a rules cop.

Unfortunately, seeing as I've most of the other coaches in our conference that they've had players that cheat, I'm not very popular  

[Ryan Crago]

for the record, i dismiss the notion that Wie cheated... ya, it was a bad drop, but i don't think she had any malintent.

as far as cheating in amateur tournaments to the sunday nassau, the way i figure it is if you have to cheat to beat me, you're the one who has to live with it.  i'm not playing for tons of prestige or prize money, so i'm not a rules cop - you know the rules, play by them!  if you don't play by them, i'm not going to get worked up about it, because the karma police are always watching!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Most of my friends know that I know the rules fairly well, not some walking talking rule book, but OK.   I have been through the USGA short course and do some rules officiating, etc.  But I normally dont bring up the rules unless asked, certainly not in friendly competition, because that is just not me, and I certainly dont want to be a pain in the a**.  But everyonce in a while someone rubs me the wrong way when it comes to the rules, then I can change.

I was playing in a one day late season event at my club that was more social than anything, and I had brought one of my customers that was just the nicest guy, and he was already a little nervous and out of his element at a private club function, but we were having a good time.  

One of our opponents has a reputation for creative actions on the course (I am sure every club has one), and he miracluously found a ball that certainly looked gone from the tee when none of us were over on that side of the fairway, but I didnt have a view so I just let it slide.  Again it was late season and the course was soft so they were playing winter rules in your own fairway.  Well everyone had been rolling the ball all day, and on the 10th hole my partner was in a someway bare spot and asked me if he could roll his ball and I said sure.  Well the bender of rules proceded to tell my partner that he had just incurred a penalty as he was not in the fairway (and when you stood back there was a good chance that he wasnt if you drew a straight line of the fairway cut, but you couldnt tell because the grass was very thin there) anyway it was a mere inches if it wasnt and my partner (who was already nervous) just felt terrible.  It really pissed me off, and I told him dont worry, I will beat both of these cheating SOBs on my own ball and I did.  

Then on the next hole one of our competitors came to rest just outside of some long grass in a hazard.  He then proceeded to start taking practice swings shearing off the long grass with every swing, and I couldnt belive my good fortune... I walked over to the jerk and started counting off his partners penalty strokes with every swing, and of course he wanted to know what I was talking about.

On the next hole the jerk proceeded to "find" his ball near a hazard that I am almost sure he didnt clear, and after pitching up on the green, I caught him looking along the hazard on his walk along to the green.  So from then on out I became the rules Nazi.  If you want to be a jerk then lets play, just tell me how you want to play it up front.  I gained great enjoyment out of not only beating them, but finding every obscure rule that I could think of that I knew they would probably not know and bringing it up to them from then on out.

[Peter Galea]

the way i figure it is if you have to cheat to beat me, you're the one who has to live with it.

I think that you're making an assumption that the person who cheats has a conscience, they don't. If you don't stand up for the rules you are condoning cheating and theivery. You are in fact saying that it's OK. It is not. It is your responsibility to protect the field.
End of rant....I hope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Moore,

Doesn't the handicap system automatically make self correcting adjustments for cheaters ?

[Peter Galea]

Michael Moore,

Doesn't the handicap system automatically make self correcting adjustments for cheaters ?

I know you didn't address this question to me, but....
the handicap system is a favorite tool of cheaters.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

That's a seperate category of cheating.

A specialty all in its own.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

I was hoping no one on this website would ever bring up the actual subject of cheating in golf and in the context of the Rules of Golf. If anyone did, though, I guess I'd have to say I thought it might be you Michael or Adam Foster Collins, since, in my opinion, both of you have perhaps the most inquiring minds on this website and by that I mean that as a good thing.

[TEPaul]

"Have you ever got all up in a fellow competitor's face? "

Michael Moore:

Is that what you're asking? Is that what you really want to know? If that's all you want to know then, yes, of course any of us who've played tournament golf, recreational golf for money or any kind of golf have probably run into with questionable circumstances and situations from fellow competitors and opponents who seemed to have tried to pull all kinds of shit with the Rules---call it intentional latitude, cheating, however you want to define it.

Is that what you're asking Michael, or do you really want to ask any of us if we've ever cheated, or feel that we have?

[mike_beene]

I'll answer that.When I was 12 or 13 I signed for the 89 my marker had on the card when I knew it was a 90.The fact I remember this at 45 and never told anyone is interesting.I have never knowingly cheated again(at golf,trial law or marriage)but I am hypocritically quick to judge.I bet I am not alone.

[Lloyd_Cole]

It is a funny subject isn't it. I was leading in a small tourament recently and a fellow competitor came over to me toward the end of the round and told me that I'd better keep it going because he didn't know what he'd do if that - gestures to other competitor - cheating SOB beat me..

My father made the most amusing gesture I'm aware of, and bear in mind my father is Larry David, while I'm still just becoming Larry David, anyway on the first tee paired with an infamous member, my old man presents him with a calculator, saying ' I think you might need this'.

Worst experience - caddying for our club's assistant pro in a local pro tournament when I was maybe 18.. and watching him roll the ball in the rough on the second hole. I thought I was going to be sick...

Best experience - and refer to Jones's bank robbing quote if worried about self righteousness - playing Woking alone a couple of years ago found my ball centre of the fairway in a big divot. Note that I live in USA - home of preferred lies and I sometimes partake if that is the local rule - anyway I hit down on it where it was with a 9 iron to 10 feet. Probably my most memorable shot and nobody saw it..

[Brent Hutto]

I've only played golf for a decade or so and almost never play in competitions. In friendly matches for a couple bucks I can honestly say I've never seen any outright cheat. Some people don't know the Rules and so I've had to remind them of, say, the difference in yellow and red staked hazards. And I've seen drops taken that seemed like they might have ended up 12-15 inches closer to the hole (not that I had any string to measure with).   But as far as someone "finding" a ball that I thought they had dropped out of the their pocket or moving a ball marker on the green, if that has ever happened they were quick enough to do it when I wasn't paying attention.

That said, it would probably be possible to pull a fast one on me because I'm a pretty trusting sort. I don't insist on being present when someone picks the point where the ball crossed into the hazard (unless they ask me to) and I don't check what brand and number of ball someone ends up with after searching in the woods for a while. And in all candor, my knowledge of the Rules is such that if some is absolutely convinced that they're proceeding under the correct option most likely I wouldn't be certain enough of my own interpretation to argue the point for more than a minute or two.

If I were to ever play in serious a stroke-play tournament of some sort I guess I'd have a responsibility to be a little more sharp-eyed and a bit less trusting. As it is, if someone's willing to resort to some kind of subterfuge when my back is turned to beat me out of a bet for who buys drinks at the 19th hole then it's entirely possible they can get away with it. But I must say if someone pulled the kind of crap you guys are describing right in front of me, I'd take that as an insult and have no problem calling them on it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Time to dust off my "Breakfast with Sam Snead Story."

About 1980, I was going to have a breakfast meeting at a hotel near the Western Open, with Jack Tuthill, then head of the PGA Tour Operations. The restaurante was crowded, and the host asked both myself and an elderly gent if we would mind sharing a table to reduce our wait.  We both agreed.

We talked, and I was REALLY impressing this guy, I am sure, with my stories of being a golf course architect apprentice!  At some point, he asked if I had played in Scotland, and I had, having just returned from my first ASGCA meeting there.  He asked if I was familiar with the lighthouse hole at Turnberry, which I was.

He related a story about playing in a pro am with Don January there, and how Don had to move his mark out of the line of another put, and accidently forgotten to put it back.  He noticed before leaving the green, and assessed himself a one stroke penalty.

He continues to say that he is a terrible putter, so on the next hole - the lighthouse hole - he is on the front edge of the green, 105 feet from the hole, and proceeds to mark it on the lip of the cup.  He putts out, walks to the edge of the green, announces a one stroke penalty on himself and marks par on the Card.......and continues to do that until the end of the round.

Then Jack Tuthill arrives, says to my companion, "Sam you old goat, what are you doing here?" and joins us, confirming the story and saying that they added rule 1 (or modified it) based on that event to say that you must play within the spirit of the rules should you find what you think is a loophole.

I only had the smallest inkling of who I was sitting with, and it was dawning slowly on me, with his accent, his stories, etc.  He did ask about "PO" turf, which he said was infesting his home course back in WV.  When he said he played in a pro am with January, I just assumed that he was the amateur partner.  Even now, I wonder why I didn't put all that together a little quicker!

In any event, if those old guys called out cheaters more in those days, maybe it was because they weren't quite the gentleman we now assume them to be.  In fact, it is one of the few areas where modern players might be better - not because human nature has changed, but because there are more people and cameras watching.

Its kind of like wondering how all those civil war soldiers had the courage to stand in a line 30 yards from the enemy w/o cover and fire away. I know they were braver than me, but if you look at paintings and pictures of those old battle lines, the outside guys were angled in - and the soldiers knew that if they ran, they would be shot by their own sargents!  Again, maybe human nature hasn't changed at all.

[John_Cullum]

anyway I hit down on it where it was with a 9 iron to 10 feet. Probably my most memorable shot and nobody saw it..

You saw it. That's all that matters. That's the great thing about this game.

[Mickey Boland]

Yeah, I called out a cheater, and it was my own partner!

I was asked to play in a 3-man scramble by a person on a local school board and another guy who was running for an elected position.  I knew the "gentlemen" but had never played golf with them, but I went ahead and played because it was a good "business" round for my company.  

3-man scramble, 2 three-man teams to a group.  The other 3-man team didn't show up to play with us, so off we went.  Mr. School Board was keeping our scorecard, and something he said early on kind of bothered me, so I started keeping a scorecard also.  Well, we finish at -2 (on my card) and are kind of wrapping things up at the end of the round when Mr. School Board announces that we shot 10 under.  I told him that that didn't sound right.  He said he was pretty sure.  I said that I kept a scorecard also and why don't we go over it hole-by-hole.  So after comparing scores on the first 3 or 4 holes he says "Well, we can use your scorecard if you want to."  I said "Mine's the right one so it's the one we'll turn in."  I made sure I got mine to the scoring area before he did, and then promptly left.  

I was irritated that somebody would just blatantly cheat like that, but I was really pissed that he thought I would go along with it!!!  Mr. School Board is always kind of sheepish around me whenever I see him now.  

[Ryan Crago]

Pete,

You make a good point, and I certainly respect your point of view.  Golf for me though is a very personal endeavour...  that doesn't mean i dont like to compete, but in addition to competing with 'the field', every round i play i compete with myself.  

the way i look at it, if i go out and play the best golf i know i can, and someone beats me.. thats fine.. i go home knowing i played well, but just came up short.  if a person CHEATS to beat me, sure i'm not happy about, but i still go home knowing I played well... i DO know that if i call someone out for cheating, and walk of the course, or get into a argument or cause a scene, i will certainly NOT play my best golf the rest of the day, and quite frankly, will ruin my day. (though i'm not afraid to say "hey, i think it was a 5 not a 4... i'm meaning incidents of tipping the ball, or bad drops).

in a way its my own personal expectation management... in no way is that condoning cheating or 'thievery'... i honestly believe the universe works in funny ways, and that the cheater will get his...

wow.. that sounds like i'm the hedonistic hippie...  ...

that being said, perhaps i would think differently if the stakes were higher - but i suppose it would get me off my game then too...

[THuckaby2]

shivas - I've seen that one also - and the "is it your common practice" question is the standard way to handle it.

Interestingly, I had that called on me once... of course I mark the ball like 99.99% of golfers do, behind the ball... but one time playing on aerated greens, the ball came to rest right in front of a big aeration hole, so I put the mark in front, because if I put the marker behind it was likely gonna move, slide down into the hole, whatever.  It was just weird.  

Sure enough eagle-eye opponent asked me the "standard question" on the way to the next tee.

I told him - hell no, didn't you see the aeration hole?

That ended that.

BTW, anyone who says he's never cheated at golf is either a saint or a liar.  I know which way I'm betting.  Remember "cheating" doesn't have to be intentional.

 

[Jerry Kluger]

One time I was playing with a friend in a member guest where the prize money was fairly significant and there were two instances of cheating which I simply could not believe.

The first time we were playing a match where one of our opponents was lying 5 about 25 feet from the hole with his partner lying 3 on the same line about 10 feet from the hole. Naturally, we conceded the 6 and told him to pick up the ball but he proceeded to putt anyway and said it was his perogative to do so.  The chairman of the event refused to rule that they had lost the hole (I believe the member was some club hotshot).  From then on when I concede a putt I do so by either picking up the ball or hitting it to the player.

The second incident was absurd.  Same event, different match.  We are on the third hole of the match and it appears that one of the opponents had more than 14 clubs in his bag.  I look over at his bag at the tee in a very casual manner to count his clubs which come to 15. We then take our carts out to our second shots and the offending player moves one of his clubs into his partner's bag and says to us that he saw me counting his clubs but it was simply that his partner had mistakenly put one of his clubs in his bag.  Now here's the kicker and I'm not kidding - one was right handed and the other left handed.

[THuckaby2]

shivas - we've discussed it before and I am with you 100%.  The wussy out was for the more tender hearts in this thread, and on this forum.

TH

[Mike Benham]

I'll stop cheating by late Sunday afternoon

[THuckaby2]

Good man.  You can't come back west with anything less than a W.  And I sure as hell don't care HOW that W is achieved.

 

[Ian Andrew]

The funny part is a chronic cheater really thinks that nobody notices, and yet we all do.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()