[wsmorrison]

Depending on the species and their location on a golf course, trees can lend beauty and/or strategy to a golf course.  We've discussed the strategic use of trees on the 11th hole at Huntingdon Valley Country Club; some of my most favorite strategic trees in golf.

What trees do you find beautiful and/or strategic on golf courses?

Here is a photograph of one of my favorite trees in golf.  Now that Fall is upon us, here it is in its colorful glory.  This tree does not promote strategy, it is simply beautiful and ancient.  This Oak is more than 300-years old and graces the grounds of the Pocantico Hills Golf Course in Tarrytown, NY.    

Surely trees do have their place on golf courses.  We just have to be careful where they are placed and how they are used.

[mike_malone]

  I reread Linc Roden's Feature Interview. He quotes a writing of Flynn. I really like what he (Flynn) says about trees. He uses words  and phrases like "turning point", "add beauty" "picturesesque backgrounds" , "shade", "segegrate holes".

     But unfortunately too many in power at clubs use "make the hole harder".


    The idea of ridding courses of clutter to reveal beautiful specimen trees also appeals to me.

[wsmorrison]

We certainly can agree on the words and wisdom of Linc.  He captures the essence of trees for Flynn in general and at Huntingdon Valley in particular in an excellent manner.

Glad to see Rolling Green is seriously addressing its clutter.  I think the 7th hole will benefit greatly.  I just wish in replacing the trees on the right short of the green that they'd put the bunker in 30 yards short of the green and not the 50 yards you said they've decided upon.

Every evergreen in the internal portion of the grounds needs to go at Rolling Green.  The smaller ones should be transferred, if possible, to the periphery and shut off some views of suburban sprawl.  That's another use of trees that needs to be expanded upon!

[JSlonis]

Wayne,

Glad to hear they are addressing the tree issue at Rolling Green.  Are they doing anything on #15, particularly, the trees to the left off the tee and down the side of the fairway?  That hole would just look so much better if the golfer could actually see the left side of the fairway and the bunkers from the tee.

[mike_malone]

 Jamie,

    There is a need for trees on the left to separate #15 from #18. But there will be more removal on the right off the tee to open up the driving area. This is an interesting portion of the course to see Flynn's ideas about trees. As you may recall the green on #18 is a few paces from #15 tee. So, the line of trees that separates these holes was there at the opening of the course.

   Thankfully, Jim Nagle advised against the idea that MORE trees should be planted on the left.

[mike_malone]

  Jamie,

   I don't think you will ever see that left bunker complex on that hole. It is one of only a few holes on this hilly course where you cannot see the green.  It is a true dogleg.We have opened up the view of the creek  on the right somewhat and should do more.

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,


I'm not sure how much you "see" of the golf course when you were busy qualifying for the US Am, but the two most offending trees on the left were removed two years or so ago (you can see their shadows in this picture).  This, along with one of the tall trees on the right just off the tee (more should follow) allows a precise draw to cut the corner leaving a short iron to the two-tiered elevated green surrounded by terrific bunkers.  From the My Home Course write-up:




As for opening up the view of the green from the tee on 15.  That sounds like a good idea, but there are so many trees between the tee and the green on the left (some of which as Mike Malone suggested are needed as the 18th green and 15th tee are so close together) that it would really be taking down trees through which Flynn carved out hole corridors in hardwoods.  There are a few holes at RGGC where the greens cannot be seen and would be better to cut trees down.  The evergreens on the left of the 2nd hole for instance would be better off cut down to reveal the green.  The fifth green cannot be seen, but I like the uncertainty standing on the tee.  Twelve needs two more fir trees to come down to really open up the green.  Two were taken down and it has helped expose some of the green.  Thirteen is another hole with a blind tee shot but it works really well that way.  Seventeen has a sharp dogleg around a grove of trees so the green cannot be seen.

There was talk of putting trees back in on the left of 15 fairway (ill-advised, but Jim Nagle seemed to sway the group once and for all), probably as a result of the trees cleared on the right side in the rough between the landing area and the stream.  It is a much more interesting visual from the tee and hopefully will result in the fairway being widened towards the creek thus bringing the stream into play.

The other area of offensive trees (more visual than limiting strategy) are the rows of evergreens between the 11th and 9th fairways and between the 9th and 12th fairways.  These along with the arborvidae around the ninth and twelfth tees ruin beautiful views and create slow-downs in play.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
  I think you mean #12 in your second paragraph when you spoke of fir trees.

  Jamie,


   As I think of what the course was like in 1926, you may have been able to see #15 from the tee since the trees were much lower then.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
    Your fine recommendation to begin the evergreen removal on #9 and#12 at the END of the row backwards is good and I believe it would have strategic implications as well. More players would try to go left off #12 for that ideal entry to the green if they felt there was less trouble.

[mike_malone]

 That picture of #15 at Rolling Green is only a few years old ,but the changes since are significant.

       1) The trees in  the back of the green on the left are mostly gone. Look at the white leafed dogwood  by the bunkers for a reference. The trees to the right of that in the back are ALL gone.

    2) On the right side of the photo by the green. 1/2 of the trees are gone ;the other 1/2  have been trimmed up.

   Progress is slow, but happening.

[wsmorrison]

I did make an error; I meant the twelfth hole, thanks.

I don't think there ever was a way to see the 15th green from the 15th tee, they were mature trees when the course was built--they certainly were large in the late 1930s.  

The collection of photos we have clearly shows the alternate green back and left of the original green in 1937 and it looks like it was removed from play prior to 1939.  I wonder when it was put in and if Flynn did it?  

[mike_malone]

 Isn't it a "Flynn"  type of thing  to add another green ? I would be amazed if those Quakes did it on their own. How about that green for shot testing?

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,


    In the 70's good players hit their second shots over the trees on the right of #18. I have been told that Big Momma did it in the Open. On that basis it is possible that the trees left on #15 may have afforded a sight of the green.

[wsmorrison]

A "Flynn" thing?  What do you mean?  Where else did he do that on one of his courses?

He likely built the alternate 9th green at Pine Valley.  It sure looks more like a Flynn green to me than it resembles Alison's design drawing.

I don't think it was done in-house, but it may not be Flynn.  The bunkering looks curious.  I cannot determine when it was put in, probably in the late 1920s or early 1930s (make work in the Depression era?) but it sure looks like it was taken out of play around 1939.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne,

In the 70's good players hit their second shots over the trees on the right of #18. I have been told that Big Momma did it in the Open. On that basis it is possible that the trees left on #15 may have afforded a sight of the green."

The photographs that David Staebler amassed clearly shows that the combination of tree height and angle prevented the green from being seen.

Let's not take this any further on a tangent for fear of turning people off to my original concept...that is praiseworthy trees on golf courses.

[mike_malone]

 I was thinking of Pine Valley when I said that.

[TEPaul]

I see you two birds are having quite a conversation with each other. Wouldn't you rather stop burining up Ran Morrissett's bandwidth and take this discussion to a diner? Get a booth and I'll join you.

[JSlonis]

Wayne, Mayday,

I have no issue with the approach shot on #15.  The trees I was referring to are the ones off the left side of the tee down to the landing area.  I remember thinking that at least a row of them could be removed to open up the left side a bit.  The tee shot from the back tee feels cramped.  I know the tee shot calls for a good draw, but I'd like to see a bit more space on the left.

Is there a bunker in the landing area on the left?

[wsmorrison]

No, Jamie.  There never was a bunker on the left of 15.  I agree it sure is a narrow chute from the back tee.  Trees on the right (old and young) do need to come out to open the view and enable working the ball.  One tree did come down but inexplicably they left a tree that was just a few feet behind it remain.  

Tom Paul,

We need all the bandwidth we can get with you and Mucci acting like the Bickersons.  I tried to corral Malone into stopping the Rolling Green tangent and get back to beautiful/strategic trees.  

So Tom, what are your favorite trees on golf courses?

[Craig Disher]

Wayne,
A lovely oak; down here our oaks never turn that shade. The leaves go from green to brown and then slowly fall off throughout the winter. But on a gc I think a tree like that should be limbed up a bit. The ground under the tree would be too shady for grass and creates too many opportunities for the most aggravating shot in golf - the abbreviated punch back to the fairway.

[wsmorrison]

Look at the size of some of those limbs near the ground!  I'd say that trunk is at least 6 or 7 feet in diameter.  The tree is so old, I don't think you'd want to touch it, especially as it is out of play.  Loved the Muddy Waters song.  The other you tried to send didn't come through.  Thanks!

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Right #9 is definitely a Hugh Alison design. He designed it, drew it, explained it in text and the club very much approved what he recommended, and even discussed trying to build it just after they accepted his recommendation hoping he'd still be around. He may not have been around when it was actually built (probably late 1921 or 1922), though, but that green looks a whole lot like Hugh Alison's style. He did a lot of long drawn out semi-swalish like greens like that one. Two of his other PVGC greens, #6 and #11 are sort of the same long drawn out semi-swalish type.

[wsmorrison]

I can't wait to sit down with you and go through the Alison plan and discuss the alternate 9th green.  It should be fun, and informative....for me.

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