[Daniel_Wexler]

"How does a rollback ever ocurr, with mindsets like ours (Human Beings)"

Adam:

Not a bad question, but I'd answer it two ways.  

Pragmatically it can occur because regardless of who stands where on what, a good deal of pressure is being brought to bear on the USGA, especially in the form of so many prominent players speaking out.  No matter how most of us feel, pro or con, they've got a lot of political cover if Nicklaus, Norman, Els, Faldo, Crenshaw, etc. are publicly supportive of their actions.

Philosophically, I would suggest that your premise has an inherent flaw: I agree that man (generally) strives "to achieve higher and higher levels, of a perceived perfection" but where is the perception of "perfection" (or even substantial improvement) here?  I'm not a big rankings guy but it doesn't take a lot of insight to notice that among the universally perceived elite courses, very few are of a modern vintage.  There are, of course, lots of interceding factors there (some political) but if we are systematically rendering obsolete the finest playing fields we have, what "higher and higher levels" are we achieving?  Proving that we can design higher-tech equipment?  Big deal.  Someone designed the aluminum baseball bat once upon a time but the Major Leagues had the good sense NOT to allow the balance of their game to be fundamentally altered.  The USGA, on the other hand, has decided to sit back and let us rebuild all the stadiums.

Re: your question to Tom, I would suggest that the shoe can be placed squarely on the other foot.  Since we're not gaining anything beyond boosting some egos with modern equipment (unless you've got a new point of view on that subject), why not instead observe that those who care primarily about feeling better about their own games can simply use non-conforming equipment, as has always been the case?

I guess because the ego boost might be diminished somewhat if they had to acknowledge that their artificial boost came from outside the rulebook....but is it really worth sacrificing everything we've talked about for that???

DW

[Sean_A]

Daniel

I don't have the answers you are seeking.  Perhaps Adam is right, human nature is less than divine.  In any case, I am glad that there are people out there such as yourself that will fight their corner.  I have no doubt that you are well intentioned and that if even a bit successful, future members of these classic courses will praise yourself and others of your bent who hold the game dear to their hearts.  

Ciao

Sean

[Alfie]

David Wexler said ;
"As far as the rest, I find your "if it doesn't directly effect me, why should I care?" attitude kind of sorry.  Do you not care about victims of natural disasters if they happen in a neighborhood other than yours?  People who are starving?  Victims of terrorism?  OBVIOUSLY golf is a million times less important than these things but the point is not dissimilar.  Unless, of course, you don't really care much about the game at all....but then what are you doing here?"

My God ! That makes TWO humanitarians in the same post ! Maybe there's hope for the world, and a pastime called golf, yet ?
I take my hat off to you, David. Even though that's another little display of (golf traditional) RESPECT that appears to be going by the wayside these modern days ?
...............

Adam asks - ""How does a rollback ever ocurr, ?"

We just need a few people with some "balls" to do it !
Either on your side where golf is being controlled, or on my side where the R&A are being controlled ? Either way is fine, considering golf is OUT of control !

"No one is stopping those who feel passionately about the "old game" from playing equiptment that is not cutting edge, are they? "

The ball is not equipment, Adam.
.....


Craig said - "I have learned something here....a $4 ProV-1 is single handily responsible for: "rising land prices", a "supers cell phone bill", "cart paths", "deep rough", "5 hour rounds", "people quiting the game", "ruining the game", creating money grubbing golf whores,the demise of the walkable course, making classic courses "obsolete" and a "general decline of western civilization....

As Casey once said...Amazing! "

You're right, Craig - it's Truly amazing - that golfers don't see beyond their own noses ?


Alfie

[A_Clay_Man]

Daniel-
The realities are, things change. According to one of my lifes big influences, that recently passed away, "Everything changes". And she's more right than those who provide the  political pressures, you cite.

"Universally perceived courses"?

If there truely was a recent renaisance, what were we getting away from? but, the modern designs the perceptions are based on?

Which answers your other question of what is the upside? The upside is perhaps a new perception on what constitutes the full spectrum in the big world of golf.

[T_MacWood]

"Tom, No one is stopping those who feel passionately about the "old game" from playing equiptment that is not cutting edge, are they?"

Adam
That's the attitude I'm talking about. Play with hickories if you want or go full technology; preserve a great old course or plow it up and redesign it. Anything goes..its all good. Whatever floats your boat. Moral relativism.

Its also man's nature to appreciate important works and places...that is why the Louvre is busy and we have places like the Alhambra and Katsura villa/garden to enjoy.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom...just as Sean has said, if the folk at Merion want to "save" their historic course and "preserve" it as it was at some point in time, that is their choice, not mine. The originator of this thread blames the USGA for the lack of "preservation" that is occuring in the game today and fails to see the responsibility these members have in the demise of the game...

When it comes to equipment, I'd be happy to conduct a poll of golfers at my course....they can choose between (A) Hickory shafted clubs and appropriate ball, (B) Steel shafted club with persimmon head and appropriate ball, or (C) Graphite shafted club, metal head and Pro V-1 ball....

I would wager $1000 that C will come out far ahead...

[George Pazin]

If technology is not an issue, why do we have an ODS to begin with?

[Rick Shefchik]

When it comes to equipment, I'd be happy to conduct a poll of golfers at my course....they can choose between (A) Hickory shafted clubs and appropriate ball, (B) Steel shafted club with persimmon head and appropriate ball, or (C) Graphite shafted club, metal head and Pro V-1 ball....

I would wager $1000 that C will come out far ahead...

Of course it would...and what would that prove?

This discussion has never been about your game, my game, or the golfers at your course. The discussion is about how ungodly long the pros and the college kids have become, and how it has warped the game from a spectator's point of view, and forced wonderful older golf courses to either get out of the business of hosting championships, adding ever-more length or turning themselves into tunnels of terror in order to protect par.

The USGA has accepted responsibility for setting club and ball limits, precisely to preserve the relationship between the quipment and the playing fields. Many believe this is one of those times when that relationship is becoming unduly distorted at the top end of the sport, and if the USGA takes its rsponsibility seriously, it's time to do something. The pro game was more interesting to watch before the 350-yard drive became common. That's my concern -- not what's in your bag, my bag or the bags at your club.  

[Tom_Doak]

The problem with the USGA has always been about money.

Back when Polara sued the USGA, it didn't have any real money in the bank (about $3 million cash), and it would have been wiped out if the original anti-trust judgment had held up on appeal.  At the time, none of us considered that it might be a good thing!

In the late 80's and 90's, the USGA built up a "war chest" to take on the equipment companies if they had to ... but since then they have been reluctant to take on the manufacturers because they don't want to lose all that precious cash they've saved up.

What the USGA needs to do is GIVE ALL THE MONEY AWAY to worthwhile golf charities.  THEN they can make a stand with the manufacturers, secure in the knowledge that there will be no lawsuit because there is no money for a judgment.

[Craig Sweet]

Rick...the 350 yard drive is NOT "common".

Once again, it is not the job of the USGA to "preserve" or "protect" classic golf courses from the bad intentions of their memberships.

[Rick Shefchik]

Craig,

Let's say, "too common."

And answer, if you would, George's question. What is the ODS for, then?

[Daniel_Wexler]

Nice call Tom.  

Craig:

You've got me confused.  Towards the beginning of this thread, you stated that the distance issue is not a factor for 99% of golfers, then here at the end you're willing to wager $1,000 that the vast majority of members at your club would choose this expensive modern equipment.  So...

Are those members all just deluded?  

They'll all wish to pay more for equipment that doesn't make any real difference?

Of course, you might be right about this...in which case we've traded away the relevance of historical records, the architectural integrity of many of our greatest courses, etc., etc. so that guys like you can have an ego boost that isn't even real??

[Paul Richards]

Craig:

>Rick...the 350 yard drive is NOT "common".

How can you say that with a straight face?  Daly AVERAGES 308.8 yards per drive - and he's only 6th longest this year!!!

On the Tour, 350 is becoming ALL TOO COMMON.

>>John Daly at 308.8 yards/drive, Kevin Stadler at 300.1, and Phil Mickelson at 300.0 come immediately to mind.


>>Even Tim Herron averages 292.9 yards per drive, Joey Sindelar at 287.9 and even Duffy Waldorf averages 282.9.  

>>All of these guys are really excellently conditioned 'athletes'  by any definition, and any one of them would have won the "Longest Driver on Tour" stat as recently as about 1982 with those numbers ........



And I've played with some of these college golfers.  They are even LONGER than the guys on Tour!  350 will be the AVERAGE soon - not just 'common' - so what will it take to wake up the USGA?


 

[Craig Sweet]

Paul, you are too emotional. I suggest you look at the PGA tour averages. If 350 yard drives were common the average drive would be much higher than the 280yds. or so that it is today.

[Craig Sweet]

Daniel, the "distance issue"...as in hitting it so god dam far it renders a classic course obsolete IS NOT a factor for 99% of the golfers playing today...however, hitting shots that go straighter, that add 10-15 yards to the average drive, is a huge thing for the average golfer. Just because YOU have decided you don't like this and have stopped playing, is no reason for the USGA to "roll back" the technology...so you'll feel good again.

Pick up a hickory shaft and go to it if it makes you happy...buy a used set of Ping Zings on ebay for $200 bucks, if the new equipment is too expensive for your tastes...

You know, I could still ski on 210cm skis, with their skinny waste, and no flex...while wearing leather boots snapped into some old Cubco bindings...but WHY should I subject myself to that when the new skis are easier to turn, the new boots are comfortable, and the bindings are safer?

[TEPaul]

Let me just mention that it apparently seems to many on here perhaps a good and noble thing to do to withdraw one's membership contribution to the USGA. However, one would certainly hope that in doing that, one's protest, if that's what it really is, would be done to hopefully inspire the USGA to do better. But if anyone on here actually thinks it would be OK if whole-sale protests of this type actually weakened the USGA  enough to the point of being cast into irrelevency in the future in what they've heretofore done regarding golf, I would say to you protesters that you have very little understanding or feeling for the health and prosperity of the future of the game of golf.

The quesiton is, if any of you "purists" think it would not be a disaster to see the organizations, the USGA and R&A get cast into irrelevency then please tell me what in God's name you think could possibly replace them that could do better in the future? And if you say that doesn't really matter, and that something will turn up, I'd say none of you really understand much about golf and the wonderful way it's been for so long, after all.

[JohnV]

Paul, you are too emotional. I suggest you look at the PGA tour averages. If 350 yard drives were common the average drive would be much higher than the 280yds. or so that it is today.

According to the PGA Tour website, there have been 999 drives of 356 yards or longer.  That works out to about 27 per event (I didn't count the majors and a couple of others where they don't keep stats.)  Of course, some courses have lots and others have few.

[John Kirk]

JV, How many of those 356 yard drives occurred at Kapalua?  You might have to eliminate that course as an outlier.

[T_MacWood]

Tom...just as Sean has said, if the folk at Merion want to "save" their historic course and "preserve" it as it was at some point in time, that is their choice, not mine. The originator of this thread blames the USGA for the lack of "preservation" that is occuring in the game today and fails to see the responsibility these members have in the demise of the game...

When it comes to equipment, I'd be happy to conduct a poll of golfers at my course....they can choose between (A) Hickory shafted clubs and appropriate ball, (B) Steel shafted club with persimmon head and appropriate ball, or (C) Graphite shafted club, metal head and Pro V-1 ball....

I would wager $1000 that C will come out far ahead...

If the members of your club have your moral relativity--and I suspect they do based on current societal norms--I would guess the majority would vote for the pro v1s too. If you conducted a poll asking the membership in 1980 how much they enjoyed the game on a scale from 1 to 10, and then asked the current membership the same question...IMO you would get the same number. The games was great then, it is great today. Equipment has not increased enjoyment and pleasure of the game.

Speaking of Merion, in 1925, after Wilson and Flynn completed their work, Merion measured 6515. The course measured 6544 for the 1981 US Open won by David Graham. Today the course is 7000 yards and still considered too short to host another US Open. Equipment is out of control....and your laissez faire attitude will guarantee more and more courses being butchered. But as long is you are happy....its all good.

[JohnV]

JK,  Unfortunately the tour stats don't say what course the drive came at.  They just give you the hole and round number for some stupid reason.  That was true last year as almost all the longest drives came on the 6th or 18th holes at Kapalua.

[Paul Richards]

Tom

> if any of you "purists" think it would not be a disaster to see the organizations, the USGA and R&A get cast into irrelevency then please tell me what in God's name you think could possibly replace them that could do better in the future?


You make a good point.

Maybe someone with some cahones would then step up.

Remember, in an earlier era, the Western Golf Association made a 'play' to be the arbiter of the game.  Perhaps we can get them to step back up?  Or the MGA?  

Anyone who will do the right thing before golf becomes tennis.



For the good of the game?   Indeed.

 

[Daniel_Wexler]

Craig:

I'll say this: You've got huevos.

I've asked several times on this thread what we're gaining in all of this, and you're the only one with balls enough to actually say that you value your little 10-15 yard ego boost over all the things we're losing.  Personally, I don't think I could view anything loaded with several centuries worth of history, tradition and lore with such a sense of my own self-importance...but at least you'll come right out and say it, and I suppose that counts for something.


Tom P: I hear what you're saying, but while I'm sort of neutral on this, there are those who'll argue that the USGA is making themselves irrelevant faster than anyone's protest can.  Perhaps more importantly, I don't think that any of us who've walked have done so in a desire to make the organization weaker; it's done in a desire to get their attention so that they might wake up (a concept I'm sure you wouldn't take issue with).  I will say, however, that over the last six months or so, I have had a number of people in and close to the business tell me that they're pretty surprised how the chorus of Nicklaus/Faldo/Els etc. calls for change have (apparently) fallen on deaf ears.  The tone of what I hear sort of suggests that some ARE starting to give up on the organization -- but who knows, it might just be out of a frustration that will be sated if the inevitable rollback actually has any teeth.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Daniel Wexler,

What everyone forgets in the "technology" discussion is the inability to "work" the ball, the fact that the ball goes straighter, no matter where it's hit.

Architects designed holes that were meant to accomodate certain ball flights.  Technology has all but retired that concept.

Today, it is difficult to work the ball without exagerated swing efforts, and it's easier to hit the ball straighter.

Wasn't it Ross who deliberately designed holes where dual ball flights were intended.   A draw with a drive left a fade with the approach, etc., etc..

Shouldn't that shotmaking requirement have been retained and not eradicated by hi-tech.

The game has gotten easier.

And, the proof is the Senior Tour.

Fifty years ago guys 65 couldn't break eggs let alone par.

[Craig Sweet]

Daniel, ego? Heck, I just LOVE the way the ball flies off my Ping G2 driver with the ProLaunch shaft...I love the ball flight, the carry I get....if I miss hit a shot it still feels pretty good, and I can still tell where on the face I hit the ball...I have chosen this particular club based on information obtained form a swing monitor and a fitting...I am maximizing my effort...and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that!

Now, if I can just get my short game to be a little more consistant  

[Daniel_Wexler]

Excellent call, Pat.

Just the other day, a professional friend of mine who is not a short hitter (i.e. he generates something close to Tour clubhead speed) was telling me how he can barely work the ball anymore no matter how much he exagerates his swing.  The inability to hit such shots would materially reduce enjoyment of the game for me -- but I suppose one had to possess those skills in the first place to mourn their loss.

Craig:

Why don't you just step up and play from the ladies tees?  Then you can hit driver-wedge into every hole and REALLY enjoy the game!!

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