[Philippe Binette]

What would you do if you had a piece of land like the Old Course available for a design...

A sandy site full of relatively low-profile ondulations...

Would you try to really design golf holes by selecting a precise routing, strategically place your bunkers etc...

or

Would you just mow basically everything short, put some flags at every 300 to 500 paces on a flattish area and throw bunkers here and there at random...

what would you do, what would produce the best course...

[ForkaB]

Phillipe

In 1938, the powers that be wanted to build a "Super" course, made up of the best golfing land on TOC, the New and the Jubilee.  They chose to do nothing, thankfully?

R

[Jeff_Mingay]

Philippe,

Based on history, I'll take option two  

[Andy Levett]

You'd tell the client that alas the strip of land is too narrow to safely route parallel holes and suggest he buy up some of the property on either side  

[ForkaB]

Andy, you clever boy, that is EXACTLY what they did!

Up to 1856 or so, the course snaked out and back along the land that we now know as the inward half (holes 18-7).  then they cleared the gorse-ridden land to the right (going out, i.e. 1-6) to create the course that we know and love today!

[Philippe Binette]

The piece of land is like St. Andrews, it's not St.Andrews...

could be somewhere else...

[Philippe Binette]

Jeff Mingay:

If you take option 2, than design is pointless on a piece of land like that... or is it on any piece of land.

[Andy Levett]

You seem to have become very knowledgeable about TOC recently Rich. Is it the  follow-up to the Dornoch book?

[ForkaB]

You seem to have become very knowledgeable about TOC recently Rich. Is it the  follow-up to the Dornoch book?

Well spotted, Andy!

"Experience: The Old Course" should be available for the Chirstmas buying season (i.e. early November).

[Will Hubbard]

Mr. Goodale,

That is facinating that the inward half land was owned before the outward half.   I would have guessed the exact opposite! Who owned the holes 1-6 and the land where New, Jubilee, lie, and what was it used for?  

Looks like i have the first item for my Christmas list!

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

I hope you include the stuff about Cheape.

Bob

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What would you do if you had a piece of land like the Old Course available for a design...

I would build a minimall and Walmart

A sandy site full of relatively low-profile ondulations...

ondulay! ondulay! Little Bobalooie!

Seriously, I know exactly what kind of undulations of which you speak. The best sort of golf course land...

Would you try to really design golf holes by selecting a precise routing, strategically place your bunkers etc...

or

Would you just mow basically everything short, put some flags at every 300 to 500 paces on a flattish area and throw bunkers here and there at random...

what would you do, what would produce the best course...

I would probably do a little bit of both. Whateer it is, one would have to see the exact site, figure all of the factors: estuary, dunes, burns, property lines--make it all work from there. If there was enough undulation to make it all work, I would save at least one site for a blind par 3 with the nastiest-looking, blown out sand face and create an interesting and challenging green complex just beyond it. Greens and their undulations on the other 17 holes would be in line with the strategies that the surrounding terrain provided. Say if you had  the green disappear behind the end of a dune line, I would have a giant contour that would funnel the ball over to that section of the green, just like #7 @ The Eden Course of St. Andrews.

There would be all sorts of slopes and "kickers" to emphasize ground game over the aerial. Golf holes would be defended on the putting surfaces, not neccessarily around them for 18 consecutive holes.

I would also need a pretty big piece of property because I would have fairways the width of Long Island. Rough grass, non-existant, only in the hard to get areas, and even then it would be sparse, 3 foot tall stuff which extrication is 90% possible.

Par would most likely be 68, 69 or 73. I haven't made my mind up yet.

Ice plant and gorse would be preserved as viable hazards on the lips of THE HAZARDS.... So would be heather. Let it grow long, all year long, all night long.

Rabbits would be allowed to propogate on the parcel. So would moose, elk & deer. Anyone caught shooting them will be shot right on the spot.

[ForkaB]

Mr. Goodale,

That is facinating that the inward half land was owned before the outward half.   I would have guessed the exact opposite! Who owned the holes 1-6 and the land where New, Jubilee, lie, and what was it used for?  

Looks like i have the first item for my Christmas list!

Mr. Hubbard

The entire Pilmour Links were under private ownership from 1797 until 1896--sold to stave off bankruptcy and brought back into the municipal fold by the 1894 Act of Parliament.  As Bob Huntley implies above, the Cheape family of Strathtyrum held the feu (as they say in Scottish law) most of that time, from 1821-1896.  In an interesting footnote, the Strathtyrum estate retained the right to free golf for their family and guests over the Old Course until 1992!  Even though this right was rarely exercised, it could have amounted to up to 7,000 rounds a year!

I would recommend two fascinating books to anybody really interested in the history of St. Andrews and the Old Course: "St. Andrews Golf Links--the First 600 Years" by Tom Jarrett (an "official" account spponsored by the Links Trust); and James Balfour's, "Golf at St. Andrews Links" published in 1887, but available (I think) in reprint.

PS--my earlier post about them "buying" the land for the outward 1/2 was wrong, and I have amended it above.  Cheape still owned the land in 1857.

Bob Huntley

There won't be any detailed description of Cheape, the Rabbit Wars, etc., all much better covered in the books mentioend above.

PS--in your stays at Strathtyrum, were you ever able to avail yourself of the free golf?

[T_MacWood]

"In 1938, the powers that be wanted to build a "Super" course, made up of the best golfing land on TOC, the New and the Jubilee."

Rich
They did propose a new course in 1937-38 (designed by CK Hutchison and Guy Campbell) but it did intrude on any of the Old Course.

The proposed course sat mostly on unused land between the sandhills and the sea, which had gradually grown over the years. This course also borrowed the best land from the New course (4 holes) and the Jubilee (2 holes). Its regular yardage was 6400, but it could be stretched to 7200 on championship days. Darwin was major proponent of the plan and was very impressed with H&C'c design...Hitler nixed it.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I'm not sure exactly what the plans were, but I am 99.99% sure that there was not anywhere near enough land "between the sandhills and the sea" for any more than 7-8 golf holes.  In addition, the land is immature dunesland, and not really ideal for golf. Take a look at an aerial shot of the links and you'll see what I mean.

Also, given the proven ability of the Old Course to continue to challenge the best players in the world, I wonder how Darwin, Campbell and Hutchinson could have been so wrong in 1938 about the need for a "super" course.  What were they thinking (or smoking........)?

BTW--I assume you meant above "....it did NOT intrude on any of the Old Course."  I'll take your word for that.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I'm affraid you are wrong (once again), the proposed Modern course did not intrude on the Old Course. I'm not sure about the space today (or if the Jubilee has been altered over the years), but there was room for a good number of holes at the time. I've seen the plan and based on the comments of Darwin (and others) and the strength of Hutchison & Campbell as designers, IMHO the Modern course would have been top notch.

Darwin wrote:
"...I doubt if many of us realise how much there is of the entirely virgin country, which plays so great a part in the 'Modern' scheme. I, for instance, have often looked at it, when I have wander out alone with a club to practice; I have seen its natural splendour, but I have thought of it as the material fo a wonderful course to made long after I am dead and buried. But here comes Sir Guy Campbell, ready here and now to make no less than eight holes entirely on this virgin ground, and two more partly upon it and partly on the existing Jubilee. This is, to many of us, I am sure, a revelation, That is is wonderful ground is obvious; it uses the find range of sandhills; it has a constant view of the sea. One of the two architects described it to me as 'fool-proof', and there he was too modest, but he could not praise it more highly. 'It is difficult' says the other, Sir Guy Campbell, 'to overpraise the ground over which the Modern course will run; it so packed with ideal golfing features that every hole will have its peculiar characteristics in ever-changing variety....

....Just visualise its position. Twelve of the eighteen holes will lie between the sand-hills, high and low, and the sea; another four on the wildest part of the New course, and the remaining two on the best part of the Jubilee course, looking across the Old course to the Strathtyrum Woods. And twelve of the eighteen greens will be in full view of the sea. What other links can boast as much?'"

Darwin felt the Old Course was a "sacred and immutable" monument...not to be touched. His concerns were correct...due to the pressures of equipment advancements the course was been stretched and narrowed.

[ForkaB]

Rich
I'm affraid you are wrong (once again), the proposed Modern course did not intrude on the Old Course.

Tom

Next time, try reading what I wrote before typing your reply.  I agreed with you, so if I'm wrong, so are you!;)

PS--Darwin was very wrong when he implied that no other links had as many as 12 greens "in full view of the sea."  I can think of several, just off the top of my head.......

PS--

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'm not familiar with this piece of land but the trust that runs the golf in town seem to have an insatiable appetite for new courses.  As there are plans for holes (and even if they decide that they are no longer the best use of the land) would it not be possible to put a 9 holer in there?

Who would object?  

My personal preference - when time allows - is for 27 holes a day.  Rich if you have any influence could you get them to start construction now prior to my planned visit in 2009!

[T_MacWood]

Rich
Spoken like a true contrarian. I stand corrected you were 99% wrong.

Those were Guy Campbell's words not Darwin's. Campbell metioned a number of advantages the Modern course had in addition to the views of the sea, like its proximity to the Old.

[BCrosby]

Not to interrupt this little spat, but didn't CK Hutchison and Guy Campbell rebuild Prince's after it was destroyed as a gunnery range during WWII?

I ask because the current Prince's is not a very memorable course. It also has the misfortune of being located next door to Sandwich and Deal, two of the best in the UK. None of which would matter much except that Prince's before WWII was supposed to be in the same league as Sandwich and Deal. It hosted a couple of Opens pre-WWII. It isn't in their league now.

Based solely on Prince's, I am somewhat dubious about the quality of the "New New" course H&C designed for St. A in the 1930's. However "natural" the terrain there might be for a golf course. But I guess we'll never know.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Tony

The townspeople and visitors who use that land for kite-flying, picknicking, horseriding, jogging etc. would probably object......Hard as it may be for GCA-nuts to believe, there are people in St. Andrews who are interested in things other than golf.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Coincidence? When I think of 27 holes I reflect that I played Prince's week before last and have the pics to prove it. I will post them this winter once I've figured out how. And make my comment on the course then.

When I was getting ready to go out in the afternoon I started to read an article on the wall - from the Sunday Times 1972(?).  In it the author (Peter Dobreiner?) referred to the Architects as Campbell and Morrison and said they were friends of his but this wasn’t there finest work, He then said that work was at hand to improve things and restore Princes to it's former standing.  I didn’t get to finish this as my playing partner pointed out that there are times when it’s better to play golf than to read about it, and that standing in the clubhouse at Prince’s was definitely one of those.  I meant to go back after the round but ……….   Does anyone know if I can access the archive to find this article?

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Hutchison died in 1941. Prince's 18 was restored/remodeled by Morrison and Campbell into a new 27. One of the more bizarre and disharmonious collaborations in GA history--Morrison designed half the holes and Campbell designed the other half. There are some interesting letters in Colt & Co. from Morrison to Alison describing the not so smooth process.

Hutchison was one of a handful involved in the design of the original Prince's. And I believe he may have restored it after WWI...although I'm not certain.

He was involved in restoring Deal in 1939 after it was destroyed by storms and drought. Another group effort--Hutchison, Campbell, Alison and Morrison--this one was by all accounts a great success.

[T_MacWood]

Back to the original question:

I'd chose a combination of one and two. Mow everthing short and place bunkers strategically (and randomly) to allow for interesting choice.

[BCrosby]

Tom Mac -

I stand corrected. It was Campbell and Morrison who redid Prince's post - WWII. Speaking of property that would be hard to mess up, the land at Prince's is directly on the Channel and has lots of interesting dune formations to work with. It's a mystery why their design is so uninspired. It's equally mysterious why someone hasn't done something about it in the intervening 60 years. The place has unlimited potential.

I wish I knew more about Hutchison. If he had a hand in the present Deal, I am very impressed.

Bob

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