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Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2002, 09:09:06 PM »
We've gone this far afield, might as well go ahead and go further. I'll at least bring it back to Connecticut.

TEPaul writes:
It's actually great fun to try to see where the US Supreme Court might point to if ever asked to specifically define the "right of freedom of association".

Been there. Done that.

The Supreme Court first recognized freedom of association in 1958 in National Association for the Advancement of Colored People v. Alabama.

THe claim is that it grows out of First Amendment rights to peaceably assemble and petition the government. In Pete Irons book on the Supreme Court (a very liberal Supreme Court scholar) he mentions Justice William O. Douglass' use of the right to association in Grisswold v. Connecticut (must be something about that state) and that Douglass pointed to the First, Third, Fourth, Fifth and Ninth Amendments as sources of the emanations whose penumbras created "zones of privacy" into which government can not trespass without good reason. (Italics from Irons) He didn't use the Fourteenth Amendment "Due process clause," worrying that setting precedent there could lead to conservative judges using Grisswold to wipe out New Deal legislation.

This is one of the reasons the framers were leery of having a Bill of Rights. There are those, including myself, who believe that if it isn't in the Constitution, then the federal government has no jurisdiction. Others believe if it isn't spelled out in the Constitution, then the people have no such rights. It's my position that the federal government has no legal right to infringe on my right to privacy or association, or countless other rights, but states, unless specified in the state's constitution can infringe those rights.

Amendment 10:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Click here for an interesting site dealing with Freedom of Association

Dan King
Quote
"I like my privacy as well as the next one. But I am nevertheless compelled to admit that government has a right to invade it unless prohibited by some specific constitutional protection."
 --Justice Hugo Black (in dissent on Grisswold v. Connecticut)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2002, 09:38:40 PM »
Tim Weiman writes:
As for the LPGA, they do "arbitrarily" restrict men from playing. Good old fashioned sex discrimination. That's all it is.

You keep saying that, and while I disagree with the term "arbitrary" I agree they discriminate based on sex. I've never once disagreed with that statement. But you fail to say why this is a bad thing.

I'm about through with this discussion, but I did ask I thought a critical question that you never answered. Perhaps it was buried a bit too deep into rhetoric.

Why do you feel it is wrong for the LPGA to discriminate based on sex, but a-okay for the USGA to discriminate based on sex, professional status, age, golf course access, etc...?

Dan King
Quote
"As long as the world is turning and spinning we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes."
 --Mel Brooks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2002, 09:46:14 PM »
"There are those, including myself, who believe that if it isn't in the Constitution, then the federal government has no jurisdiction".

Jeesus Christ Dan, you do have some wild ideas! Don't believe in the Bill of Rights, huh? Why would that be?

This one's for you!

Amendment 9:
The enumeration in the Consititution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
(The Federal Government exercises no Power over the Unlisted rights of the People).

The concept of "unenumeration" (unlisted rights) is pretty fundamental to the understanding and interpretion the US Constitution!

Maybe you don't like the Bill of Rights but I'm sure glad we have it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2002, 10:12:10 PM »
Dan King:

Sorry for not responding earlier. My feelings are as follows:

Prior to the Whaley matter we had a regime in place. Both the PGA Tour and the LPGA discriminated on the basis of sex. I understand the argument that actually only one did - the LPGA, but I still think that in practice we had a men's tour and a women's tour.

The Whaley matter upsets the apple cart, so to speak. It raises serious questions about why any form of sex discrimination is fair.

How can it be that one tour SHOULD NOT discriminate while the other tour MUST discriminate?

That just doesn't fly. Either we go back to the old regime or we eliminate sex discrimination altogether.

If we are going to do social engineering, why would we help the most talented while failing to provide "equality" for the less talented? Don't less talented males deserve to earn money on the LPGA Tour just like females who can't make it on the PGA Tour? And, if not, for how long? Do we need 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 generations of high school women receiving the support system Annika received before we say  "enough.....it's time to end discrimination".

As for the different USGA events, when it comes to sex discrimination issues, I see no difference with the professional tour ranks. Same issues.

Professional vs amateur status? So far I haven't heard any protests concerning the current regime. If you have, explain their position and I'll try to respond.

Age?

I suppose you are questioning why an old person can compete in the Open, but a young person can't compete in Senior events.

Good question! It is a double standard. I need to give that some thought. In the meantime, I will issue an injunction against any old person (a person old enough to qualify for senior events) competing in the Open.

Golf course access?

Not sure what you mean.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2002, 10:40:33 PM »
Quote
How can it be that one tour SHOULD NOT discriminate while the other tour MUST discriminate?

That just doesn't fly. Either we go back to the old regime or we eliminate sex discrimination altogether.
Tim,
There is a third option, and that is to stop wishing the world was neat and tidy, and let the occasional departure from the ordinary slide unless it is truly hurtful to someone.  These sorts of events CAN happen without the whole apple cart getting turned over, so let it happen and don't worry so much about any slippery slope--we'll all deal with that if it happens.

Quote
Golf course access?

Not sure what you mean.
I believe he's referring to the U.S. Public Links Championships, which are open only to public players and therefore "discriminates" against those with access to private clubs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2002, 11:02:39 PM »
Tim Weiman wrote:
How can it be that one tour SHOULD NOT discriminate while the other tour MUST discriminate?

I don't know where I ever said "SHOULD NOT" or "MUST." I wouldn't any more likely tell the tours what they should do as I would tell the Connecticut PGA how to handle their tournaments. I prefer everyone behave in what is in their best interest. The PGA Tour® wants to be the tour for the best players in the U.S. The LPGA Tour wants to be the tour for the best women golfers in the U.S. The Connecticut PGA wants to hold a tournament for their members who are both men and women.

If less talented players want a place to play I'd encourage them to start their own tour and try to figure out a way to make money.

The free market, not any sort of force of law, will determine which of these will be successful.

I guess I'm a bit lost. I think you are either arguing that all tours and events should be open to everyone or everyone should be restricted to the exact same number of tours or events.

Either way, I think we are too far apart on this issue to keep it going any longer.

Oh, golf course access, I was referring to PubLinks.

It was fun, but I got to get back to Kawabata Yasunari and Dazai Osamu.

Dan King
Quote
"It takes in reality only one to make a quarrel. It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
 --Dean Inge
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2002, 11:21:23 PM »
Dan King:

Are we a bit lost? I don't know.

Forgive me, but something in the back of my mind just keeps trying to find what oil guys call a "material balance" or overall system logic.

What I call the old regime - an agreement by all to practice sex discrimination in sporting events - has some logic, whether you agree with it or not.

In my view, suggesting sex discrimination is okay for the LPGA but not the PGA, doesn't have the same justification. Either sex discrimination is okay or it is not.

You say the PGA Tour is just the tour for the best players and that I am free to start an all male tour.

Interesting.

This whole discussion is taking place within an environment in which the good old boys at Augusta National are being told sex discrimination is wrong.

So, what are we saying? The LPGA has a right to discriminate, that it is perfectly okay for them to do so, but the Augusta guys don't have the same rights? Why doesn't Martha say that as long as the LPGA practices sex discrimination, she will support the same at Augusta?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2002, 11:45:41 PM »
ChrisB:

Your argument that I shouldn't worry about the "slippery slope" is also interesting.

A major political drama is playing out in Washington over that very concept.

Should the majority leader of the US Senate step down because of a comment that appears racist?

Those who answer "yes" have a real logic to their position. They are saying we can never achieve our ideals if we tolerate that sort of thing from senior political leaders.

They recognize that we don't immediately go back to the days of Rosa Parks just because Trent Lott said what he did. But, equally they argue that tolerating such things has a long term corrosive effect on race relations in our society. I agree with them. History shows that preventing the slippery slope doesn't get easier when you start to slide.

The idea that sex discrimination is okay for the LPGA but not the PGA Tour (or Augusta National) will also have a long term corrosive effect, in my judgment. Either its okay or its not. Trying to have it both ways will undermine relations between men and women. The party being discriminated against will always feel resentful and they should.

No doubt you will offer the rebuttal that the guys aren't complaining. That is true. Not now. Fear of being called a jerk is very powerful, but dangerous long term.

Sex relations, like race relations, will always require a delicate balance. Double standards corrupt both. They are unfair and unhealthy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2002, 11:54:51 PM »
Tim Weiman wrote:
Either sex discrimination is okay or it is not.

Can't speak for Martha, can't speak for Hootie. I only speak for myself.
Sex discrimination is okay. If someone want to discriminate based on sex, I'd never dream of forcing them not to. I have a long history of discrimination based on sex when looking for a sexual partner. My preference is women. Other's people preference is men. It would bother me if someone told me I could no longer discriminate against men when choosing my sexual partners.

I don't understand guys that don't want to play golf on golf courses where women are around, but then I don't really understand guys that like having sex with guys either. It ain't my job to understand, just to let it be.

That being said, I think there is a huge difference between personal sexual discrimination and government sexual discrimination. I have no problem with the personal choice, I'd have big problems with the government choice.

So, what are we saying? The LPGA has a right to discriminate, that it is perfectly okay for them to do so, but the Augusta guys don't have the same rights?

While I think Augusta looks incredibly silly fighting this fight, I also believe they have every right to remain a men-only club. And Martha Burk has every right to lead a boycott against the Masters Tournament and companies that support it. I don't see any inconsistency is supporting their right to make choices without supporting their choices.

And if the LPGA discriminatory policy bothers you, boycott them. Since I don't have the same problem with their policy as you do I don't think you should count on my support.

Dan King
Quote
"The last girl I made love to, it was not going well, Anytime you make love and have to give the Heimlich maneuver at the same time, it's not a good thing."
 --Gary Shandling
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #184 on: December 18, 2002, 12:10:49 AM »
Dan King:

I'm glad you support my right to boycott against the sex discrimination policies of the LPGA. Some here have suggested that I just shut up, let it go, don't worry about the slippery slope, etc. Well, my protest is right here hopefully giving some guy who could compete against LPGA players the courage to not worry about being called a jerk. That kind of pressure has discouraged other people from speaking up against injustice.....including women.

I fully support your right to select women as sexual partners. Good choice.

But, I also feel government is allowing the LPGA to discriminate. It is workplace. Sex discrimination should not be tolerated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #185 on: December 18, 2002, 02:51:14 AM »
Dan, I am always impressed with the depth and breadth of your knowledge-- a Constitutional scholar in addition to everything else.  You must make one heck of a college student.

For those who don't bore easily, a little more about "freedom of association," if I can recall correctly.  I am quite rusty and out of date on this stuff, so don't go to court based on anything I say here.

As Dan notes, the concept of a Constitutional right of free of association was developed (some say invented) in late 1950's and 1960's and applied to strike down southern state laws aimed at hindering the desegregation and anti-discrimination work of the NAACP and later the ACLU.   While certainly not explicit anywhere in the Constitution, the right is said to derive from the First Amendment rights of free speech and  peaceable assembly (to petition the government to redress grievances.)  One needs to be able to freely form political associations with like-minded people in order to effectively assemble and petition, or so the reasoning usually goes.

Not all discrimination by "associations" is protected.  For example, the right did not justify business associations' (such as the jaycees and rotary club) discrimination against women.  I do not remember the exact test used, but am pretty sure it was a balancing of interests between the need or reason for the exclusion vs. the harm done by the discrimination.  I also recall that it is a much more lenient test than what is required when other rights are in question.  

I believe that the scope of the protection is still relatively undefined, but I do recall a few general guidelines:  Political and activist associations are given a much higher degree of protection than non-political and social groups (Martha's advocacy organization gets more protection than Hootie's club); organizations that are more private (strict rules of admission, very narrow segment of the public admitted) may receive more protection than clubs that are less private (clubs that are generally open to all but one segment of the public); organizations that are actively engaged in or promoting business and commerce receive relatively less protection (this is likely why Augusta goes to great lengths to say that the tournament is entirely separate from the club;)  Courts have taken the status of the group being excluded into consideration when balancing the right-- when minorities or women were excluded , the associations received less protection (the cases of this era considered discrimination against minorities suspect, and discrimination against women  semi-suspect.)

Some question whether the right should or does provide any protection to groups that are formed for purely social purposes.  This looks to be the case, but I don't think the question has been definitively answered.  I do recall a few cases where certain social activities, such as choosing a dance partner, were not protected associations (I think one case involved a law which prohibited those above a certain age from dancing with those under a certain age.)

Dan is also correct that the "freedom of association" is considered by many to be a right which is found outside the text of the Constitution-- a penumbra right-- thus creating a problem for anyone who likes the right, but claims to be a strict constructionist. (Shivas, are you a strict constructionist?).  Association is much less controversial than its brethren penumbra right -- the right of reproductive privacy (better known either as freedom of choice, or freedom to murder, depending on your point of view) and the foundation of Roe v. Wade.   But both rights were recognized and expanded in the same S. Ct. era and rely on similar logic.  (Griswold, mentioned above by Dan, and a case named Eisenstadt v. Baird laid the foundation for Roe v. Wade.)       [Interesting internal jockeying on Eisenstadt and Roe:  The S.Ct. heard argument on Roe v. Wade, put off ruling, then heard and decided Eisenstadt, including a few key phrases that worked perfectly for abortion, then reheard and came down with Roe v. Wade.  Like him or not, Wm. Brennan was one smart cookie.)

Some conservative scholars and judges gloss over the extra-textual nature of the right by claiming that they can see it right there in the first amendment (they have better vision than me).  Others see it flowing so directly from the first amendment as to not be a penumbra right at all (or hardly).

A few ironies regarding freedom of association as it applies to the Augusta situation.  First, the right was created in the fight against discrimination and desegregation in the South.  Second, the right which so many uphold as one of the founding principles of our nation and Constitution is but a handful of decades old, and has little more specific textual Constitutional basis than that longtime conservative whipping post: the right to reproductive privacy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #186 on: December 18, 2002, 03:03:04 AM »
Quote
There are those, including myself, who believe that if it isn't in the Constitution, then the federal government has no jurisdiction.
Dan, you've lost me here, but for different reasons than you lose TEPaul.  Are you sure you mean to say 'the federal government has no jurisdiction?'  If so, what you say is technically correct:  the Fed. Judiciary's sole source of "jurisdiction" over any legal dispute is found in Art. III of the Constitution.  But almost all commentators take it one step further and say that ALL of the federal government's powers (not just Judicial) must derive from the Constitution (judicial, legislative, and executive.) I don't think there is much doubt that this is what was intended by the framers and the 10th Amendment.

TEPaul:  

I think you may be misunderstanding Dan's quote (as I understand it). He is not disavowing the Bill of Rights, but instead stating that the Constitution sets the limits on how much power the Federal Govt. has.  If the Constitution doesnt give the Fed. govt. the power, then the fed. govt. cannot do it.   If anything, this would protect individual rts. from interference from the Fed govt., not weaken them.  

I know you like to look to the 9th Amendment to find extra-textual ("unenumerated") rights, and some scholars have suggested the same.  But with the exception of Douglas (See Dan's quote above from Griswold) judges have been reticent to take such a leap, perhaps because doing so would throw the door so wide open to the possible invention of a plethora of new rights that even the most activist of judges (except the ever-brave Douglas) would shutter at the potential chaos.  A viable historical explanation for the 9th amendment is that, because some states were contemporaneously enacting State Bills of Rights that went further that the Fed. Bill of Rts,  rights activists wanted assurances that the Fed. BofRts would not trump state BofRts or limit them to the only the rights expressed in the federal version.
Quote
It's my position that the federal government has no legal right to infringe on my right to privacy or association, or countless other rights, but states, unless specified in the state's constitution can infringe those rights.
Dan, while some question the methodology as intellectually suspect and activist, in is generally accepted that the 14th amendment (Equal Protection Clause) incorporated the BofRts and applied them to limit state governments (it was done piecemeal-- I think there are a few things that have never been incorporated.)  Even the most conservative judges have learned to let this dog alone--  I think this is one of the issues that got Bork into trouble.  I believe that the 14th Amendment was meant to incorporate the bill of rts.--not the EPC, but the long forgotten 14th Amendment Privileges and Immunities Clause.  (I am in the minority on this one.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #187 on: December 18, 2002, 05:25:14 AM »
I knew I made a mistake throwing my opinion on the Constitution into my response to TEPaul shortly after hitting the post button. I've send private email to Tom and Dave to respond to their questions.

Dan King
Quote
"Mr. Speaker, I said the honourable member was a liar it is true and I am sorry for it. The honourable member may place the punctuation where he pleases."
 --Richard Brinsley Sheridan (When asked to apologize for calling a fellow MP a liar.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #188 on: December 18, 2002, 05:34:35 AM »
DMoriarty:

You said"

"I think you may be misunderstanding Dan's quote (as I understand it). He is not disavowing the Bill of Rights, but instead stating that the Constitution sets the limits on how much power the Federal Govt. has.  If the Constitution doesnt give the Fed. govt. the power, then the fed. govt. cannot do it.   If anything, this would protect individual rts. from interference from the Fed govt., not weaken them."

DMoriarty:

I believe your exactly correct in that quote. But I don't believe I'm 'misunderstanding' Dan. It appears to me that the 9th Amendment does no more (vis-a-vis the subject wer're discussing here) than REAFFIRM exactly what Dan King thinks the US Constitution should and does do--that's all.

As for Dan being concerned about the states having the power to trump the Fed Gov and abridge citizens "rights" I do not believe that either as the US Consititution spells out in Article 3, Section 2 and in Article 4 that the US Constitution IS 'The Supreme Law of the Land'.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #189 on: December 18, 2002, 07:10:15 AM »
TE,
Wasn't me. I think you want to direct your remarks to DMoriarty.
Have another cup of coffee.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #190 on: December 18, 2002, 07:55:45 AM »
JimK:

You're right, it was DMoriarty's post I was responding to--sorry about that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #191 on: December 18, 2002, 08:21:28 AM »
If I was to read every word of this thread I would have to give up all other reading endeavors, you people are weird.  ;)

The lady got an exemption by the rules her section set forth for the championship.  If there is a dispute with that then take it up next year, what's done is done.  She will play from the same tees for the dreadfully slacking GHO, greater hartford OPEN and this should be interesting.  I hope she wins!


Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #192 on: December 18, 2002, 08:30:07 AM »
Steve Curry:

Be careful. GCA can be addictive......regardless of the topic. I started out yesterday determined to stay away and get some software testing done. Unfortunately, my development team kept saying "Tim, you'll have to wait....we need a few more hours". So, there it goes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #193 on: December 18, 2002, 09:48:15 AM »
Dave,
For those who haven't read it lately, (not you Dave  ;)  )  
Article IX. in the Bill of Rights states:
  "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people".

I think we are born with this tatooed across our pysche. Call it social engineering if you wish but the accrued rights that men like Bork or yourself don't like, or don't like how we got to them, ring true within the citizenry. No one really likes the person who would take them away, or try to, as a Bork would probably have done if on the Court.




 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #194 on: December 18, 2002, 10:50:32 AM »
Tom Paul:

A footnote to our discussion:

Professor Suzanne Keller, whom I remember so fondly, was the first women awarded tenure at Princeton. Quite an accomplishment given the very all male nature of the place when she joined the faculty in the 1960's.

Hunter College, where Keller studied as an undergraduate, created the Suzanne Keller Award for the student with highest honors in sociology.

Apparently, Keller no longer serves as professor for Princeton's courses on matters pertaining to sex roles, gender, etc. The university reports she is currently working on a book about "modern communities".

This thread has encouraged me to look her up next time I visit the university. FYI, Donald Rumsfeld was a fellow classmate (international relations courses), but I doubt it would be as easy just to drop by his office.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #195 on: December 18, 2002, 11:39:09 AM »
DMoriarty:

You said to me (paraphrased from memory) in your post #199:

"I know you like to look to Amendment 9 to find extra-textual (unenumerated) rights, as apparently some legal scholars do the same."

Could you possibly tell me what you mean by that? If you could tell me what you think I'm looking for or seeing in Amendment 9 or what you are, I have a funny feeling it very well may clear up a ton of misunderstanding on this thread.

The concept of "Unenumerated" rights (the citizenry's or People's rights) as its defined in Amendment 9 is extremely important to me, not so much in what it exactly says but in the way that the entire US Constitution is contructed and written vis-a-vis the Bill of Rights or certainly this particular Amendment.

This may turn out to be not much more than looking at the same tree from two directions but nevertheless we're still looking at the same tree!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #196 on: December 18, 2002, 12:10:37 PM »
Tim:

Interesting! It's occuring to me as I continue to read and write on this very interesting thread that many of us may be like ships passing in the night on the very same sealane!

I think I understand the way the US Government, its Constitution and Bill of Rights is constructed and basically for what purpose and also how it's mechanisms are intended to work and how they are not intended to work, but perhaps I'm wrong. If so, I would like to find out how I'm wrong.

I'm sorry Dan King is not on this thread now because he wrote me an interesting email and I responded (perhaps I will post them here).

I'm really wondering if the whole concept and structure of "unenumerated" rights might just be the key to many answers here--what they ("unenumerated rights") really are and are intended to be and mean.

It occurs to me that many on here are attempting to find references or even applicable text somewhere in the Constitution or B of R, or even somewhere in the breadth of American law for their individual opinions and perhaps grievances.

They may not find them--and I believe there's a very good reason for that--that can possibly be found in the meanings of "unenumerated" rights. I think Amendment 9 basically shows that those references and texts aren't there for many opinions and grievances (or what our People's rights are and aren't), only that it shows, in a way, the "mechanisms" to be used to satisfy those grievances (or not) through the processes that are our entire society as fundamentally founded on the US Constitution, B or R and all the extensions of them.

It will be interesting because there're some people on here who have some very clear ideas and some excellent resources. But some appear to be looking for actual and written answers and references to things (ex. Whaley, ANGC/Burk) or even a frame of logic (all this Bork mention as he arrives at the same result while complaining about the logic of how someone else arrived at it) and I don't think they will find it. All they will find, I think, is what the mechanisms are to ultimately find it and determine it, if that's what they want to do. As as far as having their grievances and opinions someday satisfied they should consider, for a time, not just the idea of "individual rights" only, but what the whole idea of democracy is really all about.

Sometimes clearly it's individual rights while other times those may have to take a back seat to what the mechanisms determine to be in the best interest of the "Commonweal", so to speak.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #197 on: December 18, 2002, 12:28:38 PM »
Dave Schmidt;

I have the Federalist Papers right here. I haven't read them in a very long time but I will if need be. Without pulling them out yet though, it's always been my impression that the Federalist Papers serve more and were intended to serve as a dialectic, probably for the original and specific purpose of selling the US Constitution to the States in the first place to be ratified!

Certainly the Federalist Papers are interesting and very historically interesting (and as a dialectic some are flatout brilliant, like Hamilton's) but I did not know that they served in any way as any kind of actual surrogate for the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and the extensions of them.

I'm well aware that there is and always has been (from even before the beginning of all this) a real dynamic between what might be considered Constitutional "strict constructionist" and those that may take a more "interpretive" view of the Constitution and B of R (the "social engineering" jurists), but I've never really looked at either side as so much complaining about the Constitution and B of R itself (although it may appear they sometimes are), but far more complaining only about those that are doing the "interpreting" or not at any particular time!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #198 on: December 18, 2002, 12:36:16 PM »
Shivas,

Has Bork therefore excoriated the Supremes for judicial activism in striking down a whole host of laws by making factual findings that the laws aren't justified (talk about legislating from the bench!).  Has he also screamed about the recent 11th amendment decisions, where Rhenquist et. al. acknowledge that what they are doing has no support in the language of the Amendment but is supported by the "structure" (or some such) of gov't?  Sounds like a penumbra to me!  Couldn't resist, but now back to architecture.

(the 11th amendment says clearly that a citizen of state A can't sue state B.  The Supremes believe that this means that a citizen of state A can't sue his own state).  So much for Scalia's belief in the plain meaning rule.)

Jeff Goldman  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
That was one hellacious beaver.

Tim Weiman

Re: She'll play from the men's tees ...
« Reply #199 on: December 18, 2002, 12:43:00 PM »
Tom Paul:

Ships passing in the night? I guess you are right.

Rumsfeld was one of those ships I passed in the night. That was in the form of taking a class together at the Woodrow Wilson School circa 1976. The class was taught by Professor Fouad Ajami. Ajami was an advisor to Brent Skowcroft before the Gulf War. He is also the guy credited with first saying the Iraqi people will welcome and cheer American soldiers if we go to war with Iraq.

I remember Don Rumsfeld thought very highly of Ajami 25 years ago after his first stint as Defense Secretary and apparently still does.

To my knowledge neither Rumsfeld or Ajami can comment on subjects like "maintenance meld", but Ajami was more popular with my female classmates.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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