[Jason Topp]

Is it worth it to drive 90 miles to play Apache Stronghold given the conditioning issues that have been discussed in the last few years?

I will be in Tucson in a few weeks.  I have an extra day and have never played a Doak course.  I've already played everything in Tucson and will play Barnbougle over Christmas.

Anyone played AS in the last few months?  

[Mike Benham]

I hear a rumor that it will be the site of the KP V ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Have you played The Preserve at Saddlebrooke or Canoa Ranch(Schmidt-Curley) in Green Valley? I played The Preserve in Feb and thought it was above average with some interesting holes.There was an uphill par3 and 2 drop shot par3s and an in interesting short par4. It's not a pushover for a 55+ community. I missed out on Canoa Ranch because of bad weather. Is it overseeding time in Tucson?

As for AS, call the club.

[THuckaby2]

I hear a rumor that it will be the site of the KP V ...

The whispers are coming from the cornfield...

If they organize it, we will come.

 

[Jason Topp]

Steve:

If I play in Tucson, I'll just play wherever my father sets it up.  He usually has some complicated plan that results in a discount somewhere.  I recall about 20 years ago him telling me to show one course my drivers license and claim I was him.  When I complained he was corrupting me, he asked if I was happy saving 75 bucks.  I had to admit there was some logic to that line of thinking, particularly because I was in college and that was about a week's worth of income for me.

[PThomas]

having played a number of Tom's fine courses, my advice, Jason, is that you make the drive unless the course is in TERRIBLE shape

[A_Clay_Man]

Jason, I was recently there, and yes the rumors are true, the place is in sheit shape, but there is grass on the fairways. And the architecture is still there. I cannot answer your question for you... However, unless you are highly influenced by the high-end maintenance practices that pollute the high end clubs throught the land, I'd still recommend going.

The golfers who calll AS home are fortunate indeed.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jason,

I would play it before it gets any worse and I'm afraid it probably will.  I don't think they have any idea what a spectacular course they have.  Apache Stronghold is an amazing course, clearly one of the best public access  courses in Arizona. And an amazing bargain!!   The greens are fantastic, it has some very cool par 4 holes and a great set of par 3's.

If the greens are still in reasonable shape, then it will be worth it.

[Brad Klein]

I find it interesting that the ones who still seem head over heels about Apache Stronghold are GCAers. Must be the Doak entourage. Maybe they know something the rest of the Arizona market doesn't. Or maybe they are so focused on design they are able to ignore what have long been agronomic problems.

I need to go back, not having been there since Dec. 2003, but it was pretty brutal then. Would welcome a detailed update. I know they are trying hard and that the layout and routing are amazing.

[A_Clay_Man]

Brad, Your sources ?  Some critics can look beyond the current maintenance, and some, cannot. It has nothing to do with being a Doak butt boy.I'm shocked that anyone would call it, unplayable. The greens are still intact with no such turf issues.


edited for clarity;

BTW, when do we get to see the Rawls write-up.

[Johnny_Browne]

I played in May 05 and it was the first Tom Doak course I had played.  I was not disappointed - it is a fantastic layout and the best I played in the Phoenix area. The tees were good, the greens perfect and the fairways poor - this did not make a difference as we allowed each other preferred lies on the fairway and just enjoyed the course.  It is definitely worth the (pretty spectacular) drive to Globe.
Johnny Browne

[Brad Klein]

Adam, the Rawls Course write up is out this week in GW. I thought that course was in wonderful shape (firm, fast) and am very criticial of (local) folks who claim it's poorly conditioned.

[cary lichtenstein]

My wife and I played AP a couple of years ago and it was in terrible shape at that point in time, really not worth playing. Maybe 10% live grass on 1 and 2 fairways.

Balance of fairways had 50 to 60% grass, grown in very long.

Find out what is going on there before you venture there. The hotel rooms and casino are Motel 6 quality with the original beddig and sheets, the food is mashed potato's and gravy + fried checken, and not KFC.

 

[Brad Klein]

Cary,

c'mon, the drive up through a century-old dead mining town is worthwhile.

[cary lichtenstein]

Brad:

The drive thru the century old dead mining town is exactly that, dead, dead, dead

Cary

[Brad Klein]

Adam, you're going to equate unplayable conditions with yesterday's rainstorm, some overseeding or aerifying? For two years, psychophants of Apache Stronghold overlooked the total deterioration of the golf course and praised its "architecture" while most people stayed away in droves or just went once and would not return. Turns out the students of architecture were simply blind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein & Tom Doak,

I'm not familiar with Apache Stronghold, but what's causing the golf course to be in such bad shape for such a long period of time ?

Is it the underlying soil conditions that were at the site ?

Is it poor agronomic practices ?

Is it money ?

Is it a combination of the above ?
And if so, what weight do you give each category ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Brad- You yourself said that you need to re-visit to SEE for yourself. And, I am shocked that you would try to corrolate the gca crowd, with droves of Arizona golfers. Other than DF, the poor people of Arizona, have been subjected to some of the worst GCA found outside of Southern California.

 Besides, A golfer that cannot get past imperfect conditions, who doesn't see it, as a challenge worth gearing up for, are also  likely to ignore what's on the groung, architecturewise, or didn't care to begin with.

Heck, Apache Stronghold doesn't even have a waterfall. How could they like it?

[Paul Richards]

I'm hoping to see AS in excellent condition.

The course itself is amazing.  Once conditioning is upgraded, it will be a great place!!!!

[cary lichtenstein]

Pat:

It is owned by an Indian Reservation and I hear that they want to maintain it, but have no one with any real experience

Cary

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary- How long has it been since you were there?

They had a qualified superintendent up until this spring. And he couldn't overcome the internal woes, so who's to say who will, or can.

The problems are almost comical in how complex they are, and their origins.

While a few years ago, there was way too much politically correctness surrounding the finger pointing. Perhaps if people hadn't been so politically correct, something substanative could've been done?

As I understand it, fhe first mistake was going against the type of grass Doak suggested. Then there was an issue with the placement of the irrigation lines, likely causing inadequate coverage.

As I said, there is grass in fairways, just many strains. And, the coverage must still be inadequate because some of the turf is soaking wet, while ten feet away, dry like bone.

 On the sixth hole, it does appear that the medium to grow the grass-in, was skimpy. Perhaps they ran out? The entire left side where it rises up to the bunkers, is dirt. With some dirt spots in the middle.

The greens are all still very nice and most teeing grounds are just fine.

[A_Clay_Man]

While a few years ago, there was way too much politically correctness surrounding the finger pointing. Perhaps if people hadn't been so politically correct, something substanative could've been done?

Are industry insiders protecting each others ass's?

[Sean_A]

Out of curiousity, how bad is the condition of AS?  Does it rival Pennard in summer?  Jeepers, my home club is looking very brown and dusty now.  Is this all we are talking about?

Ciao

Sean

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
Much of the problem started many moons ago, I'm told when a certain well-liked and well-respected AGA Director, Ed Gowan and cohorts insisted on the use of rye in akaline infested soil. Once again, I have been told this by a person VERY close to the subject who shall and will remain nameless.

I'm also sure Tom Doak will post something here, not concuring with this assessment, but this is what I have been told was the root of the problem.

Couple that with the Apache Nation of San Carlos--who should rely on a managment company like Troon to properly run the course--The entire thing is one of Golf's great tragedies. When the next Great Depression occurs (soon) and when we pull ourselves out of the ashes, this course will make a great chapter in Daniel Wexler IV's Missing Links Volume 6.

From what I have heard, they had the right guy in there (Don Mahaffey's brother) to recover the golf course and this magnificent world class design. I'm sure dealing with those ambitious Apache's finally got to him and he left soon after. (The fact is that I do think the San Carlos Apache Nation has contacted a highly contagious form of ADD.


In terms of golf course design, I still think I like Apache Stronghold--AS A GOLF COURSE DESIGN--better then Pacific Dunes.

The only thing that hasn't been done is going in there and just taking the thing from the Apaches, lock, stock and smoking barrell. As Americans in this day and age, we shouldn't have a problem with this. We did in the desert of Iraq, we should be able to do it on our own home turf in the high desert of Arizona.

When I first experienced Apache Stronghold around late 1998 or 99, it was not in that bad of shape. The greens and tees were excellent, the fairways, tolerable. However the 5th fairway--a problem fairway in terms of maintenance because of the akaline content in the soil was in sorry shape. It's ashame to, because it has one of the most creative greens you'll come across, a sort of reversed-tier, fall-away number that ties in wonderfully to the slope of the hillside its built into.

The architecture--what's in the ground--at Apache Stronghold is for the most part an excellent study to see one of Golf's Greatest Architecture Students--at a time when he was literally dying for any kind of a job--build what I consider to be of a golf course of a World Class variety.

So if you love golf courses--GREAT GOLF COURSES, forgo the affects of the conditioning and go enjoy Apache Stronghold before it's too late and gets either reclaimed by the desert or taken by some other architect who offers the Apache a chance to work on the course, gratis--just to improve his resume.

Is it Top 100 right now?  Heavens no! (As if that would mean something) Just like Yale where the proprieters didn't know what they had until their ego's were challenged and forced to do something about it. So hopefully Apache Gold will recognize the need to bring its creator back and get the place in order--if he's even available.

[Mike McGuire]

Apache Stronghold condition report

Played the course for the first time Sun Nov 20.

Greens - Excellent for the most part. Firm and smooth..some trouble spots on most greens . Most memorable defect was the  horseshoe prints on the 17th.

Fairways -  Not overseeded ..obviously firm  with plenty of dirt piles from animals or ? Bare spots ...dead spots .. name the defect they have it.

Tees .. once you found them..good enough

Bunkers....hazards for sure...some have even have sand in them.  Raking optional

Other - The liner from the construction of the greens sticks out on a lot of holes Sometimes you have to chip over it when your on the fringe

Over all grade.  A-  Most fun by far I had on our trip. The course is so good its easy to overlook the conditions. Playing AP is like being in the Wild West.  The poor conditions seem to match in a way. The land is spectacular.  Just the right height and amount of hills to snake through. No houses and very few views of other holes while your playing. Its walkable, though i would wear an old pair of shoes ...or some cowboy boots. A mule to carry clubs would fit.

With the right guys you can't go wrong.

Warning: Dont bring anyone who needs good conditions.

I played Longbow the next day. Perfect grass...Landscaped..drip emitter  on every bush...nice fence around the perimiter. Concrete cartpaths all the way (dont you dare drive off them) .

For me AP wins 7&6



 

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