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Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Doak Scale
« on: August 25, 2005, 09:01:12 PM »
   Can someone who has the Confidential Guide type up the Doak Scale with descriptions and all.  I have searched for it but the search results come up empty.  Thanks!!!
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2005, 09:22:39 PM »
Jonathon,

Taken from the 1996 edition of the book;

"0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

1-A very basic golf course, with clear architectural malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid even if you're desperate for a game.

2-A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed one up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer”.

3-About the level of the average golf course in the world. (Since I don’t go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best).

4-A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished players.

5-Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home just to see it, unless your home is Alaska.

6-A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

7-An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8-One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8’s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

9-An outstanding course – certainly one of the best in the world – with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length, or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

10-Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Drop the book and call your travel agent – immediately."

                                                                     Tom Doak

TK
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 09:23:51 PM by Tyler Kearns »

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2005, 09:54:23 PM »
  PERFECT....Thanks Tyler!!!
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2005, 11:31:07 PM »
As I reread Doak's definition of a 10, is there really a 10 in the United States, "not one poor hole"

That leaves out Pebble Beach, Cypress, Seminole, etc.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

CHrisB

Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 12:08:48 AM »
As I reread Doak's definition of a 10, is there really a 10 in the United States, "not one poor hole"

That leaves out Pebble Beach, Cypress, Seminole, etc.

He gives Pine Valley, Merion, Crystal Downs, National Golf Links, Shinnecock Hills, Pinehurst #2, and Cypress Point 10's in the book.

He has intimated on this board that Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills would probably be 10's as well.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 12:10:09 AM by Chris Brauner »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 03:31:32 AM »
That leaves out Pinehurst #2 and Cypress's 18th,
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 04:29:55 AM »
The Confidential Guide is reaching $320 on ebay at the moment so seeing as I will probably never get to view a copy, can anyone give me an idea of how the UK courses are rated.

ForkaB

Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 04:59:37 AM »
Marc

Per my recollection, Tom Doak's 10's in GBI are :

Ballybunion
Dornoch
Muirfield
The Old Course

I think there are only 10 or so of them worldwide.

Rich

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 05:49:39 AM »
Thanks Rich

What about Sunningdale and The Berkshire?

ForkaB

Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 07:45:42 AM »
Don't know, Marc, as I don't have the book.  All I know is that they are not 10's.

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 08:21:04 AM »
I'm surprised at Ballybunion getting a 10.  Although it's a few years since I played it I remembered a couple of distinctly uninteresting back to back par 5s on the front 9. It's really the holes by the sea on the back 9 which make the course.

I wouldn't disagree with the other British Isles 10s though.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Nathan Cashwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2005, 10:52:42 AM »
Don't give up on finding a copy of "The Confidential Guide" yet.  I found my copy in a used book store in Asheville, NC while I was checking our work up at The Grove Park Inn.  The book was in very good condition and cost only $40.  I was about to get a copy on-line for about 4 times that much.  Just gotta keep your eyes open.  Good Luck!

RE Blanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2005, 10:59:52 AM »
Sunningdale Old 8
Sunningdale New 7

The Berkshire GC Red 6
The Berkshire GC Blue 6

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2005, 08:49:03 AM »
Are there any courses with a Doak zero rating?

Contrived, overdone, over-the-top, over-budget, nouveau-riche monstrosities?

Any candidates (past, present, and future)?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2005, 08:58:46 AM »
Are there any courses with a Doak zero rating?

I don't know if there are in the guide, but I saw a zero once...

My head still hurts from playing Silvertip in Canada...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2005, 10:38:53 AM »
There were a dozen "10's" when the book was published [all the courses mentioned, plus Royal Melbourne West], and as I recall there were about the same number of "0's".

When the book was published, GOLFWEEK's review focused on the courses with the zero rating, trying to stir up some controversy.  [Hard to believe it, but at one time not every golf magazine was full of Doak b-boys.]  I thought that was unfair, particularly as those courses are sprinkled throughout the book and I made no attempt to draw particular attention to them.  I would appreciate it if no one repeated that exercise.

Incidentally, two or three of the "0" rated courses have since been significantly re-done.  The one which has been well covered here was Stone Harbor in NJ.  GOLFWEEK's book reviewer played the course and insisted it should be a "5" or "6", which I got a good laugh over.

I've still got a few copies of that brown-cover edition which you can have for $100 instead of $350, if you really want to own it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2005, 10:36:14 PM »
Sean:

There are some slight editing, two years' more worth of courses seen, and a lot of nice photos in the color, Cruden Bay edition.  Otherwise it's not much different.

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2005, 10:46:05 PM »
ShoreGate Golf Course in southern NJ by Ron Fream and David Dale is a solid Doak "0".  

A round there may jaundice your view of architecture permanently.

Of course, it did make Golf Magazine's "Top 10 You Can Play" listing the year it opened.  Nice job, Brian.   ::)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2005, 01:55:16 AM »
Pacific Dunes is a 10.

Palo Alto Municipal (William F. Bell, 1957, plus others) is a 4, the best of the unusual San Francisco Baylands courses.

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2005, 12:12:30 AM »
Palo Alto Municipal (William F. Bell, 1957, plus others) is a 4, the best of the unusual San Francisco Baylands courses.

I played the first 13 holes yesterday (it got dark) for the first time.  From what I saw, I would say 4 is a stretch.  This certainly didn't seem like an above-average course to me at all (3 is average on the Doak scale).

What are the other SF Baylands courses you are referring to?
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2005, 12:20:57 AM »
Andrew Biggadike -

Are you the fellow who won the Carnegie Shield at Royal Dornoch just a few weeks ago? If so - congratualations for a job VERY well done!

Are you presently in the SF Bay Area? What brings you here?

DT
(a fellow RDGC Struie member)

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2005, 12:51:21 AM »
Are you the fellow who won the Carnegie Shield at Royal Dornoch just a few weeks ago? If so - congratualations for a job VERY well done!

Yes, that's me.  Thanks very much .. it certainly was a lot of fun.

Are you presently in the SF Bay Area? What brings you here?

I just moved here (Palo Alto) to start a job.  It's nice to hear there's another RDGC Struie member in the area -- where is "here" for you?

I'm trying to play a few of the local courses before I start work next week.  Do you have any suggestions?

Andrew
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Doak Scale
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2005, 01:06:48 AM »
What are the other SF Baylands courses you are referring to?

Welcome to the land of year-round golf, reasonable temperatures, unaffordable housing and Google-aires ...

Metropolitan near the Oakland Airport and Monarch Bay, just south of the Oakland Airport in San Leandro are both better than PA Muni from a GCA view (I grew up on PA Muni ... ).

Shoreline in Mountain View is fair and I would avoid Skywest in Hayward ... both PA Muni and Skywest will semi-flood during a heavy rain in the winter as they are almost below sea level.

And with these Bayland courses, a brisk breeezeis usually a factor ... amazingly enough, each of these courses is near an airport ;)

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."