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Wayne_Kozun

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Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« on: August 04, 2005, 10:58:08 AM »
Does anyone know of any Golf Course Architects who specialize in, or have experience in, restoring Tillinghast golf courses?

Jim Franklin

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 11:01:20 AM »
Keith Foster did ours, Baltimore Country Club, and did an excellent job.
Mr Hurricane

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2005, 11:20:03 AM »
Hanse did Fenway

Rees did The Black and work at Baltusrol (L) (was that considered a restoration?)

Doak did work at SFGC

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 11:31:24 AM »
Dear god here we go again.  Can Ran just make a list on the sidebar so we make certain these inquiries are not led astray.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 11:53:27 AM »
Wayne Kozun,

Kelly Blake Moran's point should not go unaddressed.

There is no list of architects, to the exclusion of others.

A qualified architect need not enjoy "most favored nation" status in order to successfully embark on a restoration of a Tillinghast golf course.

I would imagine that each of the individuals named so far had never restored a Tillinghast golf course until they got their first bite at the apple.   And now, now they're categorized as experts by some.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 12:35:18 PM »
Hi Wayne...

If this is re: Scarboro, you know how to get in touch with Rod Whitman and I  ;D

I absolutely love Scarboro. It's undoubtedly the most underrated golf course in Toronto; perhaps even Canada.
jeffmingay.com

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 12:54:56 PM »

I would encourage you and your club to think outside the box and maybe give someone else a chance to became a 'Tillinghast Restoration Expert'. Find someone sympathic to your goals, someone who loves your course.  

There's like 500 GCA's in North America alone, don't limit yourself to those 5-10 who are some list.

Best of luck to you and your club.

Scott Witter

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2005, 02:57:22 PM »
Thank you Kelly, Patrick and Craig.  

"A qualified architect need not enjoy "most favored nation" status in order to successfully embark on a restoration of a Tillinghast golf course."

I don't really "get" the 'most favored nation' referral for it sounds way to "royal" to me and besides, are they qualified for every situation presented?  It would be unique and refreshing to see the "popular" posters attempt to use something original for a change and leave out the spiraling categorization of who is "eminently" qualified.

 "I would encourage you and your club to think outside the box and maybe give someone else a chance to became a 'Tillinghast Restoration Expert'. Find someone sympathic to your goals, someone who loves your course."  

I don't think it is all about becoming another expert, as Kelly says here we go again... It is simply about doing good work, focusing your skills and experience by giving your very best effort and commitment to the client and the project no matter what it might be and placing your complete passion in your work at the mercy of others to inevitiably criticize!

Sympathy doesn't and shouldn't enter into it either.  Understanding the goals to create the correct program maybe, developing a direction/mission perhaps, if necessary, refining the goals, helping the club to shape and mold their goals into what is appropriate for the golf course and the members...more likely.

Wayne, it should be clear that you do have many good options with individuals who are qualified to work with you and the club to achieve great results.



Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 03:23:07 PM »
What the hell happened here with all this "most favored architect" crap pile-on?   Wayne asked a question and I responded with the only people I knew of who had done previous work on a Tillie course (in other words, answering his question).  And Rees is definitely not a most favored architect here (although I thought the work done at the Black was very good).  There were no agendas involved.

In the Ross restoration thread I did the same thing, I just listed the ones I knew about, that's all (and few of those are considered "most favored").
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 03:23:39 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 03:33:51 PM »
Perhaps it would be more apropos to title the threads, "Who has done a Ross restoration?" or something along those lines.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 04:06:30 PM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  I am not speaking in an official capacity for my club, I am just wondering if there are any "Tillie experts" out there.  Sure you could give someone new a chance but many architects may not be very familiar with Tillinghast courses other than by reputation (if someone has worked primarily in California or Canada then how mnay Tillie courses would they be familiar with?).  They may be excellent at their own style but that may not coincide with the character of the course.  It certainly makes it easier if you can see an example of a restoration that a given architect has worked on and decide if that coincides with how you are thinking.

Scott Witter

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 04:13:56 PM »
Scott B.,

Relax...your first post was factual and innocent enough and I don't believe any agendas were even implied along the way by anyone.

Unfortunately, you may have absorbed my and perhaps other comments much too deep.  We were simply making a case for alternatives.  

Scott Witter

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 04:16:17 PM »
Wayne,

You make a valid point.

corey miller

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 04:22:29 PM »



We can probably come up with a large list of people that will tell your club that  they are Tillie experts.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 04:27:36 PM »
Scott is right, Wayne makes a valid point and it is hard to argue against his logic.  However, and Scott may be feeling the same way, it is also hard for me to accept the insinuation that experience restoration architects do a better job at restoration as compared to experienced architects who have not.  Just speaking from my solo career, I had not done a course that started out as land under water, but did, and it is very nice, I had not worked on steep, rugged ground, but did, and it turned out very nice.  In some ways I think the philosophical approach to design and construction is more important than the experiance in this case.  I speak with a few contractors who do work for the restoration guys and it does not always happen in the field as it might be protrayed here, and the architect is not on site as much as it is portrayed here, and the amount of research and the fees that are paid for that research are not always just to get it right in the field, so having lived through a lot in this business, and feeling that my head is screwed on right most of the time when I see a post like this I just can not accept the premise that someone like me is not a good candidate.  Changing the name of the thread is not the point,  having this type of discussion which is healthy is what we are after, I hope, it certainly is not intended to be personal as Scott B. has taken it, by no means, he just provided an opportunity for me to whine!!.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2005, 04:41:48 PM »

Wayne,

       Is it a restoration, renovation or an update?  Does your club have good documentation? Plans?  

       If it is a restoration, then is there are particular point in time that your club is interesting in restoring it to? Or are you going to restore the architects original intent?

     Just curious.

     I believe D.A. Wiebring (sp?)  restored/renovated a Tillie course in Dallas.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2005, 05:06:52 PM »
Is it a restoration, renovation or an update?  Does your club have good documentation? Plans?  
The course (Scarboro) was originally laid out in 1912 by George Cumming who was a well known pro at the Toronto Golf Club.  In 1924 the club decided that the course needed to be improved so they hired Willie Park Jr. to do the job.  He fell ill, returned to Scotland and passed away before he could do the job.

So the club hired Tillie to do the work.  He substantially changed the course in 1925-26.  The drawings from that time are on the wall of the clubhouse.  There are also film highlights of Canadian Opens held at the Course in 47, 53 and 63.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any film of the 40 Open (won by Sam Snead) but that is not too surprising as Canada had already joined WWII so there probably wasn't much in the way of changes between 40 and 47.  The 53 film contains a very good hole by hole documentation of the course at that time.

There are also rumours that Stanley Thompson did some work on the course at some time after Tillie.  It is strange that Thompson didn't get the job since he is a local but perhaps he was unavailable at the time or this may have been very early in his career, or maybe someone on the board had a grudge against him for some reason.

Over time the course has changed substantially.  Many trees have grown up and all of the elm trees died in the 60s/70s due to Dutch Elm disease.  The main feature of the third hole is a tree in the centre of the fairway which was originally an Elm.  The creek that winds through the course has widened from an average width of about 2 yards to 10 yards as the city has grown up around the course and the creek accepts much more runoff than it used to.  Bunkers have been added and removed over time.

The club has a consulting architect and he has helped make some improvements over the last several years.  There has been an emphasis on expanding tee decks as in many instances they were too small given the volume of play that the course has now vs. 1925.  We are also in the middle of a tree replanting program where "bad weed" trees (i.e. Norway Maples, Manitoba Maples, Scotch Pines) will be replaced with better native species.

There is talk of doing restoration work on the course but it is all very early in the exploratory phase and, of course, not all memebers would necessarily be in favour of such a plan.  I just asked this question to see what there is out there.  The club's centennial is 7 years away and such events often lead to such a restoration.

FYI - the Google satellite link is at http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Scarborough+Golf+Club+Rd+%26+Kingston+Rd,+Scarborough,+ON&ll=43.750389,-79.211211&spn=0.018377,0.037100&t=k&hl=en
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 05:14:56 PM by Wayne_Kozun »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2005, 05:16:38 PM »
I hope, it certainly is not intended to be personal as Scott B. has taken it, by no means, he just provided an opportunity for me to whine!!.

You're welcome.   ::) ;)

Scott Witter

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2005, 07:54:39 PM »
Kelly,

I do feel precisely the same and your comments say it quite well.

Unlike you, who gathered some valuable experience from working with other architects, my career has been solo in its pure form from day one, but my sentiments align with yours in this thread and I think this is what Tom Doak was referring to in the Ross thread the other day.  Oh yeah, by the way thanks to you as well Tom.

We have all been saying pretty much the same thing.  Where the "experience" actually lies is not at the heart of the matter, but rather if the architect has the correct approach, the historical appreciation/understanding (an honest one!), the sensitivity and respect to the original architect and the land, the research knowhow, the willingness to keep an open mind and the guts to see it through no matter what it takes.

Wayne, it sounds as though Scarboro has quite a rich history and any architect presently working at the course or who may consult to the club in the future, will likely uncover many engaging stories and walk away with much to write about in their journal.  Thanks for sharing the historical profile of the club.

Ian Andrew

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2005, 10:07:17 PM »
I have a picture from 1940 of the 4th hole. I will look to find it and give the club a copy


There are also rumours that Stanley Thompson did some work on the course at some time after Tillie.

Thompson's very limited work there was wiped out in the last 10 years, it was mostly on your downhill par three the 14th.


The club has a consulting architect and he has helped make some improvements over the last several years.

He eliminated a lot of architecture too.


T_MacWood

Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2005, 10:25:31 PM »
Wayne
What an interesting history Scarboro has...it sounds like there might a great opportunity to restore some of that history. Good luck.

I'm not surprised the club chose Tillinghast after Willie Park fell ill. They obviously were looking for a heavyweight to replace a heavyweight. Thompson wouldn't have been a household name in 1924.

There was golf course nearby Scarboro named Cedar Brook...is it still around? I didn't see it on the aerial. What do you know of that course?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2005, 10:36:12 PM »
There was golf course nearby Scarboro named Cedar Brook...is it still around? I didn't see it on the aerial. What do you know of that course?
That course was (I believe) just northwest of Scarboro but they sold the property and built a new course farther out in the suburbs.  I am not sure if it was called Cedar Brook or Cedar Brae - there is a Cedar Brae shopping mall where the course used to stand.

edit:  I found the history on Cedar Brook/Brae on the club's web site http://www.cedarbraegolf.com/index.cfm?ID=96

Here is a snippet (the club moved in the mid 50s):

Quote
The original name of the Club was Cedar Brook Golf and Country Club and was member owned from its inception in 1922.  The original layout was designed by Stanley Thompson and built on 160 acres of farm property stretching from Markham Road in the east to Bellamy Road in the west just south of Lawrence Avenue in Scarborough.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 10:43:45 PM by Wayne_Kozun »

Mike_Young

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2005, 10:38:44 PM »
Kelly's reply to this "restoration topic" is what needs to be said . he just says in a much more politically correct way than some of us would.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2005, 10:46:12 PM »
In short, Scarboro has a very promising opportunity to do something very, very special with the golf course there.
jeffmingay.com

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Tillinghast Restoration Experts
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2005, 12:35:21 AM »
I have always enjoyed Tillinghast's writing. My impression of the man is that he would find the entire concept of a "Tillinghast Expert" quite amusing.

If I was to guess — and I will — if he were on the committee to select an expert to work on his work he would push for the most flamboyant of the bunch. Someone who doesn't live and breathe golf, but enjoys many other fine things in life equally well.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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