[peter_p]

After a lenghty delay the #2 pick is National #4 and the #1 selection is Glen Abbey # 14.

[Gerry B]

a partial redemption in the 11th hour but the list is flawed imho.

[Robert Thompson]

Oh Gerry, no need to be so critical. The only reason you're unhappy with it is because it doesn't include 18 holes from the National!
Not one from Eagles Nest? That's odd.

[Gerry B]

Robert:

I respectfully disagree. My earlier post did make a reference to Eagles Nest which has 2 or 3 holes that should have been considered. I also mentioned 16 at Beacon Hall and St. Georges and agree that per Matt's post that the par 3 at Uplands deserved inclusion on the list.
My "home court" reference (or bias) to the National was for the following reason. Irrespective of one's opinion of the course -ie. is it good  / great / mediocre  / lousy- one cannot deny that the course has some of the toughest holes in Canada - and the list was based upon that criteria. I mentioned  that 2 holes should have been considered and lo and behold -the final 2 holes listed included one of my picks.

 

[Robert Thompson]

Gerry: You misunderstand. I was saying I was surprised there wasn't a single hole from Eagles Nest on John Gordon's list. I realize you thought there were some tough holes there.
Anyway, if he didn't have #9 at Toronto, or the third at St. Thomas, then his list has few merits.

[Duane Sharpe]

We hosted the Alberta PGA championship's a couple weeks back and we had all the holes evaluated according to the pro's average scores.  In fact #15 was ranked as the easiest hole at Blackhawk over these two days.  It was #1, #5 and #9 that ranked the toughest believe it or not. The wind was not an issue these two days but the greens proved to be their nemasis.
I believe #15 may be difficult to the average handicapper, but most of the pro's were able to get close to the green in two despite the  yardage of around 575 yards.
Interesting....

[Andrew Cunningham]

Not sure why #1 was very difficult except perhaps for the green.  Loved the false front and the contours.  I birdied nine with just a three wood off the tee.  A great use of the topography though.  I would agree that #5 is arguably the toughest as I made a quad!  I thought my drive up the left hand side of the fairway was golden only to realize upon arrival that the fairway dropped completely off into a dense forest.  Back to the tee I went.  Really would have liked a yardage book for that hole.  

Rod Whitman (and Jeff Mingay) have certainly learned a lot from Coore & Crenshaw (or perhaps vice versa).  This "minimalist" design is one of the best courses in Edmonton - if not Alberta.  A must play if you are in the area.

[peter_p]

Its been a year, but I think its a combination ofthe fairway contours in the landing areas, awkward yardage to the green and superb greens.

They've got some good sticks dropping by in a month - Couples, Jacobsen, Stadler and Ames.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Duane,

I never thought 15 was one of the more difficult holes at Blackhawk GC. Although it's one of my favourites... attractive, and interesting if not brutally tough.

It's very interesting that the first and ninth proved to be difficult for the pros. Although, the first green is very undulating, and the ninth very deceptive. I presume they simply had difficulty making birdie putts?  

[Chris Perry]

I can give my personal list here from BC as I've been all around the province, obvioulsly there are holes due east that would negate some of these, and a lot of private courses I haven't been privy to, but here goes, and we'll see if anyone concurrs.

No particular order either.

Par 3's

3 Westwood Plateau
16 Eagle Ranch
14 Furry Creek
17 Nicklaus North

Par 4's

7 Northlands
18(old) Predator Ridge
17 Shannon Lake
6 Sunset Ranch
13 Bear Mountain
9 Morgan Creek
12 Riverway
13 Copper Point
3 Chateah Whistler
13 Greywolf

Par 5's

18 Meadow Gardens
13 Olympic View
15 Northlands
11 Furry Creek

 

[Ian Andrew]

The hardest par thres are definately:

Par 3's

9th at Pine Ridge (Winnipeg)
240 yards uphill to a wildly crowned Ross green that you can not get a chip on unless you are low and right.

8 at Uplands

The 220 downhill shot is over a ravine with dense trees surrounding the green, and the green pitches severely towards the ravine.

13th at Devil's Paintbrush

230 yard par three with a masive maple left of the green and out of bounds hard to the right, to add insult Dana Fry added a massive roll in the green that prohibits putting from front to back without playing well away from the pin.

15th at Niakwa

210 yards to a plateau green (falls away on all sides too), biggest issue is the severe false front followed by two severe tiers that will take a ball down off the green and to the bottom of the hill to start again.

I'll think about the others for a while, but I would stack those threes even above Beacon Hall and Cataraqui.

[Duane Sharpe]

Jeff
I believe that the 5th and 9th were the toughest because  they did not figure out to land their balls short and play the bump and run.  Most of the players especially on #9 were landing on the green and rolling off the back into the gulch.  The greens were relatively hard and very fast(10.5 in the AM), creating some smart shots.
#5 again was tough because the green slopes away from the play with many balls running off the back into the longer fescue.
#1 was strickly the green speeds that set everyone off.  If you were on the wrong side of the hole these days, you were left with many quick contours to deal with.  
Although #13 and #17 are long par 4's, they did not seem tough for these guys hitting it 280+ off the tee.
ON the lighter side, there were about 8 scores in the 60's with a new course record of 67 being shot on their second day.
Duane

[henrye]

I just can't agree that #13 at the Paintbrush is one of the toughest.  No way.  Last time I was there my foursome scored 3 pars, one bogey.  I've even hit the damn tree and ended up on the green.  Beacon Hall #16 is all trouble if you miss.

I don't get why #9 at Toronto would make any toughest list.  It's a stunning hole - my favourite there, but while it plays long, its pretty damn flat & straight and yes the green has slope back left to front right, but it sure isn't one of the toughest in the country.

More tough holes for me - 6 & 7 at Wooden Sticks, The first 7 holes at the National, #'s 3 & 9 at lake Joe.

[Ian Andrew]

Henry,

At Beacon Hall you can "lay-up to the fairway and try make par from there. Once on the putts are makeable so you can always steal a par. Prevailing wind is in your face.

At the Paintbrush tell me where you play to other than the green. Second question, how do you putt from front to back on the green and still make par (without making a 10 footer) ?
Prevailing wind is towards the out of bounds.


We agree on #9 at Toronto.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Duane,

I've long preached that fallaway greens, such as the 5th and 9th at Blackhawk GC, are key to challenging better players at judging slope and contour rather than yardage to the hole. I'm very happy to hear that those specific greens work in this regard. Excellent news!

And, it's also interesting (having heard from a number of good golfers that Blackhawk's not challenging enough off the tee) that 67 is the NEW course record. That's not very low for a course that's been in play, what? three summers now, and has hosted a professional event.

Although, that said, I'm terrified to see what Couples, Ames, Jacobsen, and Stadler might score in late August! I suspect one, or all of them will go lower than 67.

[Robert Thompson]

Ian and HenryE: OK, 9 at Toronto is 460 yards long, with OB on the left and a hill with fescue on the right. The creek cuts in front and then plays all the way down the right side. Either you guys have got your games in shape are ready for the tour, or this is a difficult hole. Comparable, I'd say, to the 3rd at St. Thomas, which is also very difficult.

I'm with Ian on the Paintbrush. That hole is a beehatch.

RT

[Robert Thompson]

Jeff: Isn't 12 a monster of a par three, or am I remembering the wrong hole at Blackhawk?

RT

[Ian Andrew]

#9 Toronto

I don't think it is that long, I thought it was 430.

Fairway is reasonably wide and downhill, creek is beyond landing, and crosses well short of the green. The entire front of the green is open for a bounce in approach and you can still miss right and not be in the creek. Green is a constant pitch so putts can be made.

There are harder holes elsewhere.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Robert,

You are correct, the 12th at Blackhawk is a VERY long 237 yards from the back tee with a 220 yard carry.  I thought I hit a good 3 wood but still came up short.  Ouch!

Andrew

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob,

Andrew beat me to it! 12 at Blackhawk is a difficult hole... much more difficult than 15, I think. Not only is it a long par 3, but the green features some very bold contour.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Other than 16 and 17 what green at Blackhawk doesn't have bold contours.  Not that I don't like them.  In fact I wish more new courses would mirror Rod and Jeff's approach to green contours.

BTW Jeff, how much input does an associate designer (as I you were at Blackhawk) have in the ultimate design of a course?  

Andrew

[Jeff_Mingay]

Andrew,

Rod realizes that the creation of great golf courses is a team effort. He's very receptive to ideas from others.

At Blackhawk, for example, several notable individuals - including Dave Axland, James Duncan, and course superintendent, Duane Sharpe - had imput into the design of the course.

Some of my favourite greens at Blackhawk are the more subtle ones - 4, 6, 8, and 11 for example.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Jeff,

The 11th green at Blackhawk seemed to be quite large given that it is a par 5.  Perhaps more sutle than the rest but it still has that medium sized ridge running through it - effectively giving it two tiers.  What I did love was the severe left to right slope on the left side of the hole leading up to the green.  I didn't understand what Kerry Ketter was talking about until I had already run it through the green and almost into the drink.

Was that land form always there or did you guys design it?

Andrew

[Jeff_Mingay]

Andrew,

That green site was created. It's completely artificial. The saddle-like fairway leading down to the putting surface is a big cut. The fill was used to create the peninsula green.
 

[Adam_F_Collins]

Was it just me, or was the 439 yard second at Highlands Links a serious kick in the beans?

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