[Marc Haring]

Here is #12 on my home course, Cumberwell Park GC in the UK. It’s a straight ahead par 5, 540 from the tips and about 510 from the regular tees, downhill to a fairway that slopes right to left with a water hazard on the left side of the fairway and a lot of trouble on the right. It is a fairly wide drive, is usually played down wind and is therefore easily reachable.
The existing greenside bunkers are bland and offer little strategic merit to the hole except the right hand one which is a good line for the second. Hit it on this line and the slope will usually take you round onto the green. The left bunker just frames the green a bit and is a containing bunker to stop balls running hard left and into the stream that runs down the left side of the entire hole.
We need to do some irrigation work and some drainage on the left side bunker which therefore gives us a great opportunity to create something a bit more impressive and also something that will help develop the hole strategy.

Has anyone got any ideas on what we should do?

I can try to do a little photoshop work for any good ideas so we can get a rough look before it is built.  

Here’s the tee shot.


And here’s the approach shot from about 100 yards out. Normally you’d have about 200 yards for your second after a good drive from the regular tees.

[Mark_Fine]

Yes, don't wing it like many clubs do and just start changing things.  Develop a master plan.  Good luck.  

[wsmorrison]

I agree that a competent team needs to put together a long range master plan for the club.  

It would be hard to suggest changes from these two pictures.  As a sort of mental exercise, and not intended to be considered an informed opinion, I thought of widening the fairway to the left so that the ball runs a bit more offline.  In addition I would make the left greenside bunker deeper and maybe expanding the width in order to pinch in the approach a bit, though still leaving a ground approach option--but one with a bit more precision required.  

The bunker would thus come into play on a wider range of approach shots.  

By the way, I really like the far more natural look of the tees than the formalized laser straight and level tees being built on new and classic courses here in the States.

[Marc Haring]

Wayne and Mark

Thanks but a master plan is not going to happen because it is not in the budget. This is just a bit of opportunistic tweaking to make this hole more enjoyable for the masses.

Marc.

[Brian Phillips]

Marc,

I have just e-mailed you.

Brian

[Mark_Fine]

Marc,
I hear that comment all the time about the master plan "not being in the budget"!  It is interesting how a course will spend a million dollars or more rebuilding their bunkers but can't find the money to put together a plan to orchestrate the whole process?  

What did Mackenzie say about "green committees"?  I think you know  

Think of it this way - If you are a slicer, don't put bunkers on the right, if you hook it, don't put them on the left, if you hit it high and soft, bunker the front of the green, if you are a long hitter, add a new back tee, if you are a purist, research the original design to see how the hole has evolved and if restoration makes sense, if you like mounds, run them up both sides of the hole,... get my drift  

Mark

[Marc Haring]

Mark.

We are not going to have a master plan, we won’t even spend a million pounds on a new course (which we are building), the greens committee consists of me and the original design which was done 12 years ago was inspired by money. Spending little and making lots.

Wayne

I like your suggestions about the bunker on the left side. Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

[Mark_Fine]

Marc,
Is this the only hole that needs tweeking?  How does it compare to the other par fives in strategy, length, shot options,...etc?  It would be easy to offer suggestions but without knowing what you want to accomplish (what's the plan) and how changes will impact the rest of the golf course, almost any suggestion will do.  If you end up putting in a nice deep ragged looking bunker, it might make all the others on the course look awful.  Then what do you do?  

I just saw a course where one hole was changed and looks totally out of character with the rest of the design.  The committee only wanted to change (improve) one hole and they did just that.  Now they are wondering what they should do with the other 17 holes?  They are going to end up spending a lot of money.  

Planning doesn't have to be expensive and it almost always saves money and redoing of work in the long run.

I hope things work out for you.  Good luck.
Mark

By the way, nice photoshop work!
 

[Willie_Dow]

Marc

What is the drainage slope of the green ?  Let's not fill the new bunker with h2o !  Great do with your photoshop work !

[Steve_Lemmon]

now for some really uninformed advice:  How about a grass bunker of some sort in line with and short (maybe a little left) of the bunker on the right to up the ante for guys trying to bounce it in to the green with the second shot?  

[Craig Disher]

Marc,
Another approach - playing off Wayne's observation - would be to put a gentle mound on the left front of the green, about where you photoshopped the bunker. If it was built to the same scale and shape as the two mounds on the right it would look very natural. The construction and maintenance costs would be less. Tying it into the green would be the key and for that I think an architect would be very helpful and cheaper in the long run.

[Kyle Harris]

Focusing on the right side of the green:

I'd get rid of the bunker and mow that part as fairway... adding a bump or two between where the bunker is now and the green to add interest.

I'd also consider adding a bunker about 40-60 yards short of the green along the present right boundary of the fairway to give the person laying up something to think about re: line into the green.

[wsmorrison]

I like the dimensions you show, Mark.  It is all about aesthetic taste after that.  For me, I am not fond of the capes and bays on the leading edge of the bunker.  The top line would look better to my eye if it appeared closer to the green level and a bit cleaner line angled high left to low right.  

You're very good with that photoshop.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Could you post an aerial of the hole?
Or maybe an illustration?
While I agree that a master plan is worth the small investment, I see why you'd like to improve a bit at a time.

It would be negligent to post some ideas, without knowing what is leading up to and following this hole...
Would you also post a scorecard.

I'll post something nice afterwards.

Cheers

p.s.
I have a pet peeve for fingers pointed at the green, they look funny, swoopy, or jigsawly when approaching.

p.p.s
What is your budget?

[Marc Haring]

Mike et al.

I’ll try to get an aerial posted tomorrow and I’ll take out those pretentious fingers. Thanks for every ones input.

Here’s a link to our photo gallery, which should give you all the required info on the adjacent holes.
http://www.cumberwellpark.com/photogallery.aspx

As you can see, the #12 comes at the end of a very easy stretch of holes that go par 5, short 4, par 5, par 5, both reachable.
Thanks

Marc.

[Marc Haring]

Here is the amended version of the bunker and I’ve also gone along with Kyle’s idea of removing the right bunker and creating a little swale in its place. In fact having had a good look at the site this morning, I’m coming to the conclusion that removing that right hand bunker is a great idea even though I didn’t much want to make too many changes. There’s a lot of scrubby stuff and woodland on the right side of the hole but also quite a bit of high ground on that side that if cut back as fairway will make a great feeder area for those brave enough to fire at the right side. By putting in a swale the golfer would have to have the ball moving right to left down the slope to get through it and onto the green. It really would start to create a mass of different options out of what was a fly it at the flag no brainer.
I’ve also got the aerial shot taken a few years ago. We’ve changed the fairway a bit and added a back tee but the bunkering and everything is exactly the same.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Fortunately, as you're not a client, I can suggest an expensive alternative and not get fired as my answer is clearly not what you want.

Although not too expensive, some tree clearing (red line)- in house - as if you had more time.  Irrigation, drainage, earthwork, grassing....

A straight fairway cut.

As it is reachable for the better player, give them some opportunity, but make it risky to go right.
The average player will go around the long way, I'd remove the left green side bunker, as they've already probably put one in the creek.



You might not want to hear what I'd suggest for 11...
Would you post your entire routing?
Thanks.

I vote you get a master plan.
Have you priced some consultation work?

[Marc Haring]

Mike.

I’m lost for words. Thanks so much for your time and effort. There is no question, your hole is in a different league to what we have but removing a fair chunk of protected ancient woodland complete with one of the only sites of Bath Asparagus in the world and the construction of an additional 12 bunkers; well sadly it’s not going to happen. But I love your design and appreciate your efforts but simplicity is something that has its place in a highly competitive market where every GBP counts.

I had an idea of adding a little spice to an already successful product without trying to create a completely different range but clearly the GCA’s have won the vote on that one.

Thanks

Marc.

Ps. Your thoughts on #11, did it by any chance have anything to do with cutting in a second fairway through he wood?

[James Edwards]

Mike,

Great stuff.

Can I ask just one question though...  When you did the design - you didnt take into account the overall style of the bunkering at the golf club? or was this purely just to give a few ideas to MH in location (genuine question)

[James Bennett]

Marc

I am enjoying this thread.  Thanks for raising it.

I would strongly support the advice to get a Master Plan first.  I understand the feeling that we have only a small amount to spend, so we might just do this.  My Club was in that position about 15 months ago, and sought advice on two holes that posed the most immediate problem.  We intended to take corrective action there, and spend our money on that.

The advice from two separate architects was similar with regards to  the two holes, but the overwhelming, strong argument from both was 'DO A MASTER PLAN FIRST'.

We have since done that, and the perception of what the major improvements that can be obtained from a small spend (we too are short on Australian Dollars) was significant.  Whilst the two holes first considered are still important, they are not the first priority.  And other holes where we thought a simple tweak here or there would be good, they are being left as is.  We also have an understanding how over time (when we have money available) the course will work together, how the holes will inter-relate and how giving up a little on one hole can give so much to two or three holes.

However, at the end of the day, it is your golf club. Good luck with your choices.

[Jim Thompson]

Marc,

Just for giggles, could you give us a full aerial of the entire course?  Further could you tell us the relative grade and relationship to your water table?  I'm sure young Mr. Harris could have a full redo for you by the end of the week.  Plus it would just be plain old fun for the rest of us.

Cheers!

JT

P.S.  A Master Plan always prevents a Master Mess.

[Marc Haring]

Buckling under the shear bulk of opinion I am starting to think that having a master plan would be essential. It’s not that I didn’t agree, it’s just that this issue was discussed at length a while back with the course owners but without any commitment at the time.

The land is gently rolling with a low point starting at the pond on 3 and running next to 8, 12 and 17 and ending up in the main lake that is crossed by #26. It's a nice piece of property for golf with no development.

Any way, here’s the entire aerial and remember a new nine holes is being shaped as we speak.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike,

Great stuff.

Can I ask just one question though...  When you did the design - you didnt take into account the overall style of the bunkering at the golf club? or was this purely just to give a few ideas to MH in location (genuine question)

James,
Thank you.
I was just offering a suggestion from across the pond - rather impractical.
An unawareness of the site conditions becomes quite apparernt having never visited - ancient woods and some tasty asparagus...
I did think the existing bunkers were a little bland, and maybe over time they could work towards a agreed upon style.
There was a thread a few weeks ago about working on a single green at a club, and how it would fit in with the rest.
If I were working for the club, I would try something nicer if over time they wanted to rework them, with an emphasis on maint. costs.

And if that left greenside bunker does act as a saving bunker for the better players, I'd suggest removing it, so they rethink going for the green in two every time.

Good news is it appears as if Marc is rethinking about a master plan, not that they have the funds....

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