[Kyle Harris]

Matt, Mike, Pat, et al,

I feel that the 18th's only liability is the way the bunkering is presented. The aerials pictured in "Reminiscences of the Links" and in the back hallway of the clubhouse at Bethpage show more amorphous bunkers than fingery capes and bays. It also shows that the right greenside bunker bled into the front of the green a bit more and there was no left greenside bunker, making the tee shot favor the left side. The green also seemed narrower, with the major axis pointing toward the first green.

I don't see how the bunker over the green in the aforementioned aerials would affect play other than for an overcooked approach, but I wouldn't be opposed to its addition either, especially if integrated into the green like the bunker to the rear of the 15th green on the Red Course.

As it stands though, the 18th is an alright hole, and good finish... even though I feel that the Red's 18th is the best finish on any of the courses at Bethpage that would probably mesh better with the holes on the Black as well.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

In 1999 I suggested to Craig Currier to pay ip service to Rees and disregard him as much as possible.  I suggested for a better US Open finish, to build a new tee left of the 17th green and play up the 18th Red.  

[Paul Richards]

Philip

>I've tried making as detailed a study of the Black Course as is possible. From what I can tell, the work Rees did was accurate to the original details as possible. For example, # 18 had clusters of bunkers, this was not an invention of his. Yes, they now "pinch in" slightly more than they did in the past, but so what?


No way am I going to say that you're not correct.  However, it struck me the first time I played the Black after the renovation, and then struck me even worse the next time I returned - the bunkering on #18 looks like an afterthought - no way does it fit in with the rest of the course and it looks like someone had a very short finisher and decided the only way to toughen it up was to put a bunch of bunkers in - looks and feels unnatural, after 17 excellent holes, IMHO.


>Also, how poor a hole has the 18th at TOC become now? it averaged 3.5 (or thereabouts). Yes, it is drivable by almost everyone now, and that's the problem. The likelihood of being to overcome a two-shot lead isn't there. Is that the model for a championship finishing hole that we should desire. Not as far as I am concerned.

I agree from the perspective that technology has ruined professional golf to the point that a great risk/reward finisher, like at TOC, is subjected to being abused as it was in this year's Open.

That being said, I did find it fun and exciting to see this play as a par 3 1/2 hole - and thought it a neat way to end a round with a chance for a birdie or even an eagle and the real possibility that you lose a stroke with 'just' a par.

 

[Phil_the_Author]

Paul,

What quality would you say is needed to make a finishing hole "great?" Especially one that not only could but will host a national championship on occasion?

Would it not be that the hole has the reasonable ability to see a two-shot swing, enabling a birdie to beat a bogie and not just a par? Can anyone say that for 18 on TOC now? Why then would you want to turn 18 on the Black into that by making it a drivable par-4? I, personally, can't see it. Unfortunately, maybe the only limitation to the entire Bethpage facility is how the routing of the Black against the routing of the Red forces the tee location for 18. As a result, what realistic options are there other than to lengthen it,  something that can no longer be done at the tee, move the green up the hill, something that the state does not want to do because of cost and viewing factors, or what Rees did, pinch in the fairway at the landing area?

Finally, back at TOC, imagine standing there on #17 as the final hole with a one-shot lead; how exciting would that be? Very few finishing holes have that characteristic. At least what is there has some potential for that. Go back to the records and see how many in the final groups in 2002 bogeyed 18.

Though not the greatest, 18 on the Black is not bad and may yet produce a terrific ending in 2009.

[corey miller]

I have a hard time believing (though they may act as if it is a reason), that cost is a factor in not making the 18th a better hole.  I get a kick out of the state authorities getting credit for the black.  What happened in the preceeding 50 years?  Couldn't they have charged a substantial premium for a well preserved and maintained Black in order to better maintain all the courses at the complex?  They got lucky that the USGA and Rees bailed them out from years of gross mismanagement.  In fact, if 5.5 hour rounds are still the norm, is that good management.

Not saying it should be changed, but it is not even an average hole and with the money flowing in from the tournament cost should not be a factor in moving one green.

[Jamie_Duffner]

There is no way the bunkering around the 2nd green is out of play for a pro.  I stood to the right of landing area at the 02 open and watched 5 groups come thru.  The hole location was front left.  From where I stood, the flag looked like it was in the left bunker.  I watched 4 out of the ten players hit into the left bunker.  All four shots did not land in the bunker on a fly, but caromed off the left edge of the green and into the bunker.  If you drive up the right side of that fairway, you have a definite right to left tilt in the fairway, which makes an even more difficult shot.  That bunker sits below the green by about 6 or 7 feet, making it a difficult up and down.

What I would like to see happen to the 2nd green is a small extension back left to create an interesting hole location and some tilt from right to left.  Nothing extreme, just a slight tilt.

18 needs help.  BB is my favorite and like Mike Golden, I will defend it to the hilt, but what 18 needs is a diagonal play off the tee which could be accomplished by the bunkering.  Think 5th, 7th or 12th hole bunkering.  It would be much in line with the diagonal nature of most of the tee shots on the rest of the course.

The 5th hole might use some added length, but 40 yards is too much.  15 to 20 yards would suffice.

The 9th hole should be left alone!  It sits in between a difficult par 3 and a brutish par 4, and was never a push over to begin with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Why is everyone looking at the issue and the hole SOLELY [/color] in the context of the US OPEN ?

Isn't this your big beef, that golf clubs alter their golf course for the USGA's benefit.

And now, you want to do the same thing.

You can't have it both ways.

There's nothing wrong with the hole, that thousands upon thousands enjoy year in and year out.

Stop supporting a concept that you've been condeming for years.

RMD,

I don't believe that CC makes unilateral and ultimate decisions at BPB.

[Mike_Golden]

"Why is everyone looking at the issue and the hole SOLELY [/color] in the context of the US OPEN ?

Isn't this your big beef, that golf clubs alter their golf course for the USGA's benefit.

And now, you want to do the same thing.

You can't have it both ways.

There's nothing wrong with the hole, that thousands upon thousands enjoy year in and year out.

Stop supporting a concept that you've been condeming for years.[/b]

RMD,

I don't believe that CC makes unilateral and ultimate decisions at BPB.

Patrick Mucci,

No offense, but how can you possibly stand by your above comment about 'everyone' when Geoff Chiles and I clearly stated in earlier posts we could care less about the pros:

"The Black is the Black is the Black.  They can do whatever they want to lengthen it for the pros, but it will always be, for me, an incredible golf course from the white tees playing at about 6600 yards. Tee to green, far and away, the best course I've ever played.  Of course, I'm prejudiced, I suppose."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You were talking about the golf course in the context of the white tees, and I think most if not all others were referencing it from the championship tees, including the newer tees.

[Paul Richards]

Patrick

>What quality would you say is needed to make a finishing hole "great?"

I would answer this question with a simple example - Carnoustie.

 


Just ask Mr. Van de Velde .....

 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

When I heard that 14 green was CC's, I had a hard time believing this.  He was trained by Richard Spear, who consistently tweaks Piping Rock--has anyone noticed the tweakings?  Every change at Piping Rock looks as though it was there from the CB MacDonald era.  The work CC has done on the Red falls into the Spear quality of work--who can identify the bunkers that recieved work on the Red?  I am quite certain that Meeks and Rees have had the most responsiblity for the changes to the Black.  I know for certain that Meeks is responsible for eliminating the risk/reward feature of the 6th tee shot.  I thoroughly believe more bogeys or worse would occur with the restored fairway.  Meeks stood on the 12th for a great part of the 2000 NY State Open on a rare day when the wind was straight and fairly strong out of the East.  The next day there was white spray paint in the shape  and location of the current back tee!  Rees really botched the greenside 11th bunker in 1998.  It was altered.  I do not think it was Rees who tweaked it to its current shape and look.  I could be wrong on this one, but I think CC has kept the course from having been over Reesed.  I have been playing the Black since 1989 and when it was in its worst shape it vaguely resembled a very famous course a few hours south.  Since Tilly was a founding member of that club, I always think of the Black as his homage and if he had been able to work to its completion, maybe his great crowning achievement.  I always get the impression that Rees and USGA are trying to go the wall to wall grass Parkland direction.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Before CC came to the Black there was a real problem growing grass.  The bunkers were treacherous sand pits that were extreme hazards.  Try hitting a fried egg located in a deep footprint! The 4th really resembled a journey through the dunes as one experiences over at Friars Head.  The tee shot on 12 also looked like a shot over the dunes--though the bunker looked like a massive pile of sand.  The maintenance on the Black has gone from beyond bad to as good or better than 99.99% of all private clubs in the US!  In the fall, there are days when the greens stimp at 11+.  The fairways are cut at PGA tour height and are pure.  

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