The Evangelist of Golf / George Bahto

[Joel_Stewart]

Hopefully you rewrite some of it. The few pages on Sleepy Hollow are embarrassing.

[Gib_Papazian]

Yeah, because the guy who edited and rewrote the book clearly sucks as a writer.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I am in.

[David McIntosh]

A question, while it's on topic:  the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos.  That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?].  I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.

I think it would be worth it to upgrade the photos and would be interested in buying a copy.

The bumping of this thread made me check the current online prices for another book I’ve wanted to read for years - your The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie but it too remains at sky high prices on the secondary sites. I thought I had struck gold when I saw it on your website but then spotted the ‘out of stock’ notice. Do you have any plans to reprint that book at some point?

[Tom_Doak]

The bumping of this thread made me check the current online prices for another book I’ve wanted to read for years - your The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie but it too remains at sky high prices on the secondary sites. I thought I had struck gold when I saw it on your website but then spotted the ‘out of stock’ notice. Do you have any plans to reprint that book at some point?

It's possible, but more complicated since there were two co-authors who would have to be on board - one of whom has passed away and for whom I have no contact info.


Also, there is much more info today for MacKenzie than there was twenty years ago, so that book would really have to be updated.  So I will probably just wait with the rest of you for Neil Crafter to write his book on MacKenzie.

[Adam G]

Second on the MacKenzie Book and another vote for new pictures.


Also I randomly found that there is a publisher that has in the last few months been republishing out of print GCA classics called Coventry House Publishers https://www.coventrybooks.com/books. You can find their stuff on amazon. Currently have Cold and Alison, CB MacDonald, Hunter, Thomas, Mackenzie, Methods of Early Golf Architecture, etc. I haven't purchased one of their reprints yet but had not come across them before and thought others might be interested (especially since the Thomas book is $14 not 400).

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak-


You have the publishing rights to "The Evangelist of Golf"?  I have one of the originals signed by George and Gib Papazian.  Doubtful that I would buy the new "improved" version.  The one I have gets it done fine.


I know that George was nearly done with Vol. 2 before he passed, waiting for editing, pictures, illustrations, etc.  I was under the impression that Gib and maybe Ran were to complete the project.  Is this not the case?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak-


You have the publishing rights to "The Evangelist of Golf"?  I have one of the originals signed by George and Gib Papazian.  Doubtful that I would buy the new "improved" version.  The one I have gets it done fine.


I know that George was nearly done with Vol. 2 before he passed, waiting for editing, pictures, illustrations, etc.  I was under the impression that Gib and maybe Ran were to complete the project.  Is this not the case?

Lou:


The reprint is not a done deal yet, but in discussion as they say.


I was given a copy of the manuscript for George's book on Raynor at his funeral, or shortly thereafter.  It was a long way from a completed book!  There was discussion of a joint effort to complete it (Gib, Ran, myself, Gil Hanse) but nothing has come of that as we have all been busy with our own stuff.  Honestly, it needs significant effort by someone to get it across the finish line.

[John Emerson]

Second on the MacKenzie Book and another vote for new pictures.


Also I randomly found that there is a publisher that has in the last few months been republishing out of print GCA classics called Coventry House Publishers https://www.coventrybooks.com/books. You can find their stuff on amazon. Currently have Cold and Alison, CB MacDonald, Hunter, Thomas, Mackenzie, Methods of Early Golf Architecture, etc. I haven't purchased one of their reprints yet but had not come across them before and thought others might be interested (especially since the Thomas book is $14 not 400).

I have never seen, in person, a first edition of any of the famous golden age books.  Are the pictures of as poor of quality as the reprints?

[Tom_Doak]

I have never seen, in person, a first edition of any of the famous golden age books.  Are the pictures of as poor of quality as the reprints?

The photos in Hunter's Thomas's books were awesome.


I'm not familiar with the publisher Adam mentioned, but I have seen some knock-offs of these books that were done very cheaply - the poor quality scans are okay for the text but they stink for the photos and drawings.  Once a book is out of copyright it's likely there will be someone who does a poor version so they can be cheapest available, and in those cases, you get what you pay for.

[Lou_Duran]

TD,


George gave me a look of the manuscript for Vol. 1 at Kiawah Island before it went through the final stages of editing and the pics, drawings, illustrations, etc. were organized.  It was months, maybe six or so, before the book was published.   In one of our last communications, George stated that his work on Vol 2 was mostly done and waiting organizing, editing, illustrations etc.  I did see an email that it really had a ways to go.  I am very interested in this volume as I have enjoyed Raynor's (and Banks?) work a lot, but can't get around that he didn't play golf and mostly replicated templates of holes where they fit well on the land.  To do this as well as he did, I think it would take artistic talent/creativity, something that one doesn't usually associate with engineers.


I sent George a scorecard for CC of Charleston back in 2010 and he said that Silva had worked on the course and that though he hadn't played it, he'd visited it a few times and:

"however I did make an interesting find the last time I was there ......
"right down the street fm CCC - a muni built by Raynor - includes a road hole with a road behind .... some deserted bunkering between the holes etc"


Do you know what course he was talking about?


 

[Mark Pritchett]

Lou,


Has to be Charleston Municipal (aka The Muni).  Really fun course that I believe is going through some renovations.


Mark

[PCCraig]

The Muni is the best.


I think it was proven that Raynor did not design it. Regardless it's still an awesome spot.


Haven't seen it since all the renovation work. They are effectively blowing the course up and throwing around the Raynor name. I always thought that all the course really needed was some TLC, tree work, and mowing line restoration to be really awesome but oh well here comes the multi million $$ renovation.


Also, it has maybe my favorite 19th hole in golf.

[Nigel Islam]

I believe Charleston Muni was designed by John Adams a few years after Raynor’s death. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Here are a few digitized books you can access for free.  The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.


Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339




Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372[/size]

[corey miller]

It always seemed to me that the four pages on Sleepy Hollow were intentionally embarrassing because George felt the architectural malpractice performed on the course over the years was embarrassing.  Sadly, George passed prior to the "restoration" work being complete and one wonders the extent to which his influence would have changed for the better how the course looks and plays today.

[Darragh Garrahy]

Mr T Doak,


At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.


Best
Darragh

[Jeff_Brauer]

Here are a few digitized books you can access for free.  The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.


Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339


Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372[/size]

Seeing the University of Illinois in the first example above brings back sweet memories.  I managed to get them to allow me to do a senior project on golf course design, and I discovered that all those great old books were in the "stacks", i.e. in basement storage for really old books that rarely get checked out.  In fact, I wasn't allowed to leave the basement to read them.  I probably got all C's in every other class I had because for weeks I arrived at the stacks every morning and read these as long as I could. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Here are a few digitized books you can access for free.  The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.


Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339


Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372[/size]

Seeing the University of Illinois in the first example above brings back sweet memories.  I managed to get them to allow me to do a senior project on golf course design, and I discovered that all those great old books were in the "stacks", i.e. in basement storage for really old books that rarely get checked out.  In fact, I wasn't allowed to leave the basement to read them.  I probably got all C's in every other class I had because for weeks I arrived at the stacks every morning and read these as long as I could.

It is a good thing my college library wasn't as good as yours.

[Tom_Doak]

Mr T Doak,

At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.

Best
Darragh

Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring.  We'll put out the details in a month's time.

[Darragh Garrahy]

Mr T Doak,

At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.

Best
Darragh

Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring.  We'll put out the details in a month's time.

Thank you, that's great

[Cal Seifert]

Mr T Doak,

At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.

Best
Darragh

Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring.  We'll put out the details in a month's time.

That is very exciting news. Thank you.

[Tim_Cronin]

Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.


Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.

[PCCraig]

Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.


Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.

So you're saying I should sell my two copies... 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.


Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.

So you're saying I should sell my two copies... 

I was thinking the same thing.