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NAF

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2005, 11:34:47 AM »
Is this any way to end?


Old Course's 18th isn't tough on paper, or in nice weather
By Tod Leonard  
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
July 17, 2005

ST. ANDREWS, Scotland – Say you are a golf course architect and you go to a client and ask to build an 18th hole just like this:

The fairway will be 100 yards wide with not a blade of rough. There will be no water hazards or bunkers. Make the green so big you could hold a pick-up football game on it. Let's not make it too long either, about 357 yards, and for easy access to the nearby beach, bisect the hole with a road.

Try that and you'd get fired before you ever started.

But on the Old Course, that very blueprint gets you the finishing hole on the oldest course in golf and one of the most revered.

If the Road Hole 17th at St. Andrews is a wake-up call, the 18th is for makeup.

In the 134th British Open this week, it has been a pushover, the easiest hole on the course. Through three rounds, it has surrendered only 11 fewer birdies than pars (179 to 190) and seven eagles. Ten players have birdied it all three days and the stroke average has been 3.55. That's only a quarter of a stroke harder than the fifth hole at Spyglass Hill, played in last year's AT&T, and it's a par-3.

Yesterday in the third round, 42 of the 80 remaining players birdied 18, and two eagled. The top eight players on the leaderboard all made 3.

In a professional era of 500-yard par-4s, some with daunting approaches over water, is this any way to finish a major?

"It's a very, very short hole for a finishing hole, I agree," said reigning U.S. Open champion Michael Campbell. "You can't really miss the fairway because it's so wide. It's quite a weak finishing hole."

Those who would defend the Old Course will tell you it's more about yardage and hazards. On a beautiful afternoon like yesterday, when the sky is so blue and the sun turns golden the face of the Royal and Ancient Clubhouse, who cares how easy it is? Among the most famous courses in the world that host tournaments, probably only Augusta National and Pebble Beach can rival such a stunning conclusion to a day of golf.

No. 18's difficulty, too, is completely dependent on the weather. This week, the wind has mostly been at the players' backs, allowing them to gear down on the tee with 3-woods or something shorter just so they don't hit it over the back and out of bounds.

"It's a great finishing hole," said Tiger Woods. "I've hit driver, 4-iron on that hole before. I played the Dunhill Cup, and I didn't get to the road."

Said Retief Goosen, "I've hit driver, 6-iron on 18 before, when the wind blows the other way. So it just all depends on the weather. And we're fortunate this week it's playing straight downwind."

Unlike some par-4 finishing holes in majors – such as the 18th at Atlanta Athletic Club, where David Toms had to lay up before winning the 2001 PGA – the Old Course's closer more often than not produces exquisite drama.

In 1970, Doug Sanders missed a short putt to fall into a playoff he lost to Jack Nicklaus. In '95, Costantino Rocca rolled in a birdie putt up the mound dubbed the Valley of Sin to get into a playoff he lost to John Daly. On Friday, Jack Nicklaus birdied the last hole of his major career, and Jose Maria Olazabal made eagle to get into the hunt.

Prediction: It won't be any less exciting today.

"Come tomorrow," said Goosen, "when you need a birdie, it's not going to be an easy birdie

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2005, 01:21:19 PM »
Please gentlemen and fellow attorney's as well, please leave the old girl alone. She is just fine the way she is. Her Master the R&A will tell her when to put a little makeup here and there.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2005, 01:27:34 PM »
Perhaps they should leave the road open during tournament play, it is afterall a public road.  No marshalls to stop the traffic of autos and pedestrians as players tee off ... ;)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2005, 02:22:51 PM »
I like Goosen's comment, which I'd paraphrase as "It's only an easy birdie if you don't need one."

I actually thought 18 was more interesting this year, with almost everyone up around the green, really showing off the ground play aruond the green. If it were 50 yards longer, or hazards were put in that made more people layup, we'd simply see a lot more "wedge in beyond the VOS at all costs" and a lot fewer entertaining shots.

Anytime changing the par on a hole changes the criticism, one can assume the hole is just fine.

I thought we celebrated half par holes on here! Why is it that half par birdie holes are criticised as weak and defenseless, yet half par bogey holes are praised as stout and celebrated?

Half par is half par to me - don't care which side it's on.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2005, 03:12:46 PM »
This is obviously sacrilege, but I think Shivas's suggestion about adding a pot bunker on the left side of the fairway is worthy of consideration. I'll go farther: I'll bet it happens within the next ten years, unless a competition ball is introduced.

I love driveable par 4s, and I love the 18th at St. Andrews, but the cold fact is it would be a better hole if a little bit of fear or doubt were introduced. One pot bunker could do that -- make the sweet spot for a drive more to the right, bringing OB right more into play. I share George's concern that we don't want to reduce this wonderful hole to a mandatory layup, but as they say, these guys are good, and most of them would still go for the green even if a pot bunker were introduced. But they sure wouldn't swing with quite the same confidence...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 03:55:36 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brian_Gracely

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2005, 05:07:09 PM »

Did ANYBODY bogey the hole this weekend?  Anybody?


2-time Open Champion Greg Norman did, from about 40yds short of the green.

And I'm surprised that nobody has mention rerouting the Swilican Burn and having it run down the middle of #1 and #18 fairway.  You're already proposing a mustache on the Mona Lisa why not make it a Goatee??  


Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2005, 05:16:00 PM »
I think the Swilcan Burn is perfectly situated to capture a foozle off #18 tee or an intemperate blast off #1 tee --  ;)but it is, after all, more or less randomly located in relation to the greens in question.

Pot bunkers at the Old course, on the other hand, are not  random; even if they were originated by 1000-year-old sheep, they keep moving the tees to make sure the bunkers have very specific purposes.

Adding one more would be a mustache?

And #18 is the Mona Lisa?

What does that make #17...or #11...or #14...or...

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brian_Gracely

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2005, 05:18:23 PM »
Shivas,

Considering that the hole has been the same for roughly 500 years,  would you rather:

a) See a contrived bunker added so that once every 5 years you could feel better about #18 being a Par 3.5?  

or

b) Leave the hole alone and live with the fact that not every 18th hole needs to have some dramatic risk-reward?  


How long do you think the thread would be on GCA if that bunker looked even slightly "wrong"?  

And should it face towards the #18 tee, or should it be playable from #1 in a reverse-routing?  

And how much would you enjoy your round if you got paired with a hacker that dumped it in their on #1 &/or #18 and took 4-5 shots to get out?  Would you just leave them and head to the pubs?  

Mike_Cirba

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2005, 05:23:31 PM »
Hayzues Kristay!!!

Here's a bunch of architectural afficianados on what is generally a site that reveres the game and its courses and we're talking about modifying the freaking HOME HOLE ON THE OLD COURSE?!?!?!?

Maybe we can take the green that is built "over the bones of dead men" and run a public sewer through the middle of it, effectively splitting it in two, and replace that antiquated Valley of Sin with a large pond.  

Then the really big hitters can try to get to the green on the fly, while others have to lay up and then make sure their approach lands on the proper half of the green.

Blasphemers!!!!  Why Old Tom would not only roll over in his grave; he'd likely rise from it and come and strangle those responsible in their bloody sleep!

And then we sit here wondering why so many lesser courses have been thoughtlessly modified through the years to the point where they sit incongruous, neutered, narrowed, and a shell of their former selves and no one is quite sure what happened over the years.
Ok...rant over.  
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 05:26:37 PM by Mike Cirba »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2005, 05:29:48 PM »
Old Tom doesn't scare me much.

Unless every bunker on that course was put there at exactly the same time, by the same guy (or committee) that put in all the other ones, I don't consider TOC untouchable. Especially if the R&A refuses to protect it by limiting equipment advances.

Seriously, Mike, how good a hole will #18 be when Tiger is driving it with a 4 iron?

No one is suggesting ponds, rerouting burns, digging trenches or any other outrages. One stinking little pot bunker, on a course that already has hundreds of them, and probably would have had one more if Old Tom had ever dreamed he'd see what we saw this weekend.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Mike_Cirba

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2005, 05:36:51 PM »
Rick,

Don't you guys realize the futility of your position?  

What's the end game?  

If and when Tiger can reach it with a 4-iron, should we put an electric fence with nuclear weapons around the green to stop him?

The equipment and ball is the problem.

Changing the Old Course is not the solution.

The Old Course has been in it's present configuration for somewhere between 60 and 100 years.  I say 60 because I believe a bunker or two was added or taken out in the 30s.  

Where does it end, Rick?  

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2005, 05:41:26 PM »
It has to end with a limit on equipment. I've been in that camp all along.

In the meantime, if they could add one bunker in the last 100 years, I know where I'd nominate the next new bunker in this century... :)
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

johnk

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2005, 05:49:34 PM »
Ay brother.

Does it strike any of you pro-bunker people that a bunker in the wide-open field that is the 1st & 18th would be more out of place than a pond!

1 & 18 are different than the other holes.  Everything on that side of the burn and also the road is nothing like the rest of the course.    

The panorama would be ruined...

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2005, 05:57:13 PM »
How about we move the tee up and make it a par 3?  Put the pin over the VOS, make the hole about 240, and let them decide how they want to play it.  Hole stays a par 4 for mortals.  Now we have a difficult hole with strategic options for the Open, the hole is preserved for everybody else, and nothing on the course gets altered.  Old Tom is already out of his grave chasing around his NXT, I could care less what he thinks.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2005, 06:19:59 PM »
Pat,

You are wrong..

How so ?

Fairways were narrowed,
Fairway areas were allowed to grow to high rough
Holes were lengthened and
Bunker altering occured
[/color]


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2005, 06:33:35 PM »
I think it would be a GREAT idea if the R and A would let a buncha architecture enthusiasts redesign the 18th at TOC.


 ::) :P :o :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2005, 06:38:07 PM »
Redesign?

Man, the preservationist mentality here is a lot stronger than I realized if one pot bunker constitutes a redesign.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2005, 06:38:21 PM »
Paul,

Touche', but I guess we can't help it.  I recently had a short email correspondence with someone who knows more about golf course design and restoration/renovation than I can ever hope to, and yet there I was, yapping my keyboard off about how much I liked a couple courses, what I liked about them, etc. etc. etc.   :o  We just can't help ourselves.   ;D

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

johnk

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2005, 07:33:22 PM »
Doesn't TOC already have two flat holes that are just like what's being proposed?  #9 and #10 come to mind.

On Sunday Tiger flew it 300 over all the bunkers on #9, and would've drove the green on #10 if it weren't for a pot bunker 50yds short of the green there...

No bunkers on 18: Vive la difference!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2005, 07:39:55 PM »
Shivas

You're right.  As John mentions, numbers 9 and 10 are 'pretty nondescript' - I really hope the R and A will let us at these two holes as well!

We'll show them some REAL Tiger-proofing!!!

 ;) :o ::) :P :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Kyle Harris

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2005, 07:47:38 PM »
Shivas,

It's simple, straightforward and easy.

That's why it's great.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2005, 08:00:59 PM »
>if the Jans National was the "home of golf" would you argue that it should never be improved?


IF Jans National were the 'home of golf' I would ask the Northwestern Athletic Department to move the cars so that I could play through!!!!

 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim Nugent

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2005, 08:21:31 PM »
The answer here is just like what should have been done on 15 at Pebble.  One tiny pot bunker about 290 from the tee on a direct like between the tee and the left side of the green would solve every perceived problem with the hole.  Most guys can't carry that, and those that can would probably hit driver (guys who can carry a 3 wood 295 deserve the advantage they get).  Those that do would be making the "safe" play, but at a decent risk of either dumping it in the bunker or just massacring the ball and running the risk of going OB long.   They'd have to aim for the center of the green or right.  Even if they do that, they'd be at risk of the bunker or the OB right.

So the player would have options.  Hit an iron to the left and take OB right and long out of play on the drive or get ballsy with the driver but you'd better play further right than before.
The valley of sin would remain in play and the really interesting situation would be to the Sunday pin, where you'd have guys aiming right on purpose to get the better angle to the pin.  

Shivas, could they test out your idea -- i.e. build the pot bunker, ask top players to play the new hole and give their reactions?  

Could even hold some fairly high-up amateur tournaments or golf professional tournies with the new bunker.  That would give us some real meat to to digest, not just speculation.  

If it were up to me, I would do something like what you suggest.      

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2005, 08:34:15 PM »
Jim

>ask top players to play the new hole and give their reactions


Bad idea.


Ask any Tour Pro about golf architecture.

Try it.

They know even less than all of us 'experts' here on a website devoted to architecture!


 :-[ ::) :-[ :P
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim Nugent

Re:TOC 18th--defenseless
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2005, 08:53:07 PM »
Jim

>ask top players to play the new hole and give their reactions


Bad idea.


Ask any Tour Pro about golf architecture.

Try it.

They know even less than all of us 'experts' here on a website devoted to architecture!


 :-[ ::) :-[ :P

Paul, point taken.  Then keep the players but change the judges.  If the experiment does not pan out, can´t they fill in the pot bunker, to return the hole as it was?

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