[Voytek Wilczak]

I was just given a tour of Liberty National in Jersey City, NJ, and am quite perplexed with the small size of the greens Cupp and Kite chose for this course.

The greens on the course range from 2,700-3,500 sqft. The finishing hole is a 450 yard par 4, playing down the prevailing ocean wind, with a green that is 2,800 sqft.

This green seemed tiny and anti-climactic for me. Can the cognoscenti please comment on the "proper" size of the finishing green (I think it should be big, like a stage), and on the green size in general (in the context of 2,700-3,500 sqft at Liberty National).

Btw - the size and difficulty of the greens was quoted to me as a defense agains big hitters (Liberty National, quite ambitiously, wants to host a Major in the future).

[rjsimper]

How big is the 18th Green at OC-Lake?

[Brad Klein]

For that 345 yard hole at Olympic-Lake, the 18th green is about 2,500 sq. ft. and it's too small. For a 450-yard hole, such a green is a joke, esp. one buffeted by winds. Or will that proposed 45-story tower between the golf course and the water prevent wind from influencing play?

[Matt_Ward]

Voytek:

When will the course open?

I hear it won't be until the summer of '06 at the earliest.

Do you have info on the yardages / hole-by-hole?

Regarding the green size -- the facility in question is immediately adjacent to the New York harbor and wind will clearly be an issue on many days.

[Kevin_Reilly]

For that 345 yard hole at Olympic-Lake, the 18th green is about 2,500 sq. ft. and it's too small.

Too small for what...multiple pin placements over a 72 hole tournament, or too small for the required shot (not likely), or just too small in general because of wear and tear?

[Voytek Wilczak]

Voytek:

When will the course open?

I hear it won't be until the summer of '06 at the earliest.

Do you have info on the yardages / hole-by-hole?

Regarding the green size -- the facility in question is immediately adjacent to the New York harbor and wind will clearly be an issue on many days.

Matt: the course will open July 4, 2006. In 40 days all of it will have been grassed. Yardages are available from www.libertynationalgc.com. From the tips it will play around 7,400 yards, par 70, plenty long for the pros whom they hope to lure for a PGA Championship in several years.

Brad:

The three towers are downwind from the course - on most days they will have no effect on play.

I also felt someting wrong with the small finishing green. I was even more appalled that literally in the last few days they shortened the 18th hole from 490 to 460-or-so-yards because if it were 490, the finishing players would leave the course without seeing the Statue of Liberty because of the clubhouse blocking the view. And they shrunk the green to make up the lost distance. Pullleeezeee. I thought it was a joke and told that Adrian Davies (my host) in so many words.

[Voytek Wilczak]

For that 345 yard hole at Olympic-Lake, the 18th green is about 2,500 sq. ft. and it's too small.

Too small for what...multiple pin placements over a 72 hole tournament, or too small for the required shot (not likely), or just too small in general because of wear and tear?

Too small for a majestic hole the 18th could be if they kept the length and made the green bigger.

With the small green the hole became "dinky", at least to my eye.

[SPDB]

This might have something to do with it (i.e. shrinking of green). From the 9/14/04 WSJ article by Joseph Pereira

"Mr. Cupp thought he was finally finished after designing the "picturesque finale" -- an 18th hole built in the seaside Scottish Links style, with a green on the edge of a bluff 50 feet above the harbor. But shortly after, environmental engineers told him that the green covered the precise spot where a manhole was mandated to test groundwater for contaminants.

"Because the manhole would have disfigured the green, Mr. Cupp changed the blueprint again, to place it under a sand bunker about seven yards away. Then he had to wait nearly a year for complicated engineering calculations -- factoring in tides and possible ground shifts -- before he could determine how high to place the manhole cover. A few months ago, the calculations were finally done and Mr. Cupp made his last change. He raised the manhole -- and the crest of the green -- by three inches."

[Kevin_Reilly]

For that 345 yard hole at Olympic-Lake, the 18th green is about 2,500 sq. ft. and it's too small.

Too small for what...multiple pin placements over a 72 hole tournament, or too small for the required shot (not likely), or just too small in general because of wear and tear?

Too small for a majestic hole the 18th could be if they kept the length and made the green bigger.

With the small green the hole became "dinky", at least to my eye.

I assume you are talking about LN...my questions relate to Brad's comment re 18th green at Olympic.

[Voytek Wilczak]

For that 345 yard hole at Olympic-Lake, the 18th green is about 2,500 sq. ft. and it's too small.

Too small for what...multiple pin placements over a 72 hole tournament, or too small for the required shot (not likely), or just too small in general because of wear and tear?

Too small for a majestic hole the 18th could be if they kept the length and made the green bigger.

With the small green the hole became "dinky", at least to my eye.

I assume you are talking about LN...my questions relate to Brad's comment re 18th green at Olympic.

Never mind.

[Brad Klein]

Too small to emulate anywhere else, esp. on a windswept open site like LN. I wouldn't advocate changing the size of it for Olympic-Lake, they know how to manage it and it's taking very short shots which it can sort of hold from the fairway. And that's its character and identity. But elsewhere, you're asking for trouble in terms of traffic, hole locations, ball marks, playability and turf stress.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Voytek & Brad,

Green size can't be viewed in isolation, it must be viewed in the context of its surrounds.

The green at # 16 at NGLA plays to, about three to four times it's actual size.

[Mike_Young]

I sort of have to go with Pat here.  I am not sure that the future may bring smaller greens with a surrounding complex that works for a particular shot or hole.  It is just one of the few ways left to handle technology plus it decreases cost of construction.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I like small greens in general and feel there are certain types of holes and places on a course where they are perfect. Think of those short  par 3's and 2nd shots to short par 4's Many of those are the most memerable holes on their repective courses providing moments of elation when the right shot is made to a small target. However a 450 par 4 in a windy fact situation is not one of them. I also find a course dominated by smallish greens drives home a well developed short game for those that play there regularly. I love 18 at Olympic Lake by the by as well as the green complex on the 7th..

[Voytek Wilczak]

Thanks for your comments, guys. Indeed the smallish greens at LNGC are surrounded by fearsome collection areas, hollows, etc with closely mowed grass.

So the green complexes are much  bigger. I just thought that the 18th green should be big...  

[RJ_Daley]

It is interesting how we sometimes get to the answer or answer our own question, which I think the below quote has done.

Indeed the smallish greens at LNGC are surrounded by fearsome collection areas, hollows, etc with closely mowed grass.

It's all about the maintenance meld.

[Voytek Wilczak]

It is interesting how we sometimes get to the answer or answer our own question, which I think the below quote has done.

Indeed the smallish greens at LNGC are surrounded by fearsome collection areas, hollows, etc with closely mowed grass.

It's all about the maintenance meld.

RJ - I am learning...

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