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Kyle Harris

Hole Locations
« on: July 13, 2005, 10:51:46 AM »
Are hole locations categorically more difficult in the back of the green, the middle or the front?

Let's keep the left and right side out of this for now.

Ted Kramer

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Re:Hole Locations
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 10:55:15 AM »
I think that front pins are toughest to get close to.

-Ted

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Hole Locations
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 12:07:18 PM »
Kyle,

Great topic!

I debate this a lot, and think it depends a lot on winds.

Most players are more comfortable aiming so their miss, if any, stays over safe ground.  They love a shot where the prevailing wind and the green design both increase odds of getting close, and also is kind to the "safe" miss, or bailout. They hate a shot that requires aimingnear/over a hazard to get where they really want to go.

If you are 175 to the middle, and 185 to the back in a downwind situation, and are debating between clubs, its more comfortable, as you can take the lesser club, possibly trying for less spin, knowing that possible winds add carry and further reduce spin to help you roll back to the pin. If not, you end up in the middle of the green.  Ditto on a front pin into the wind. You probably need an extra club to combat the wind, but headwinds add backspin.  You get close if you execute, but find the green if you don't.

To me, that sets up the strategic dilema better than the opposite theory - a closely guarded front pin downwind, or back pin in a headwind increases the risk by increasing your chances of finding hazards since the aggressive choice tends to miss in the hazard, reducing incentive to try to get close.  Thus, you play for the middle of the green, unless you think the hazard (perfectly groomed sand bunker, perhaps) is a better miss.

Both situations have their place, but the first scenario promotes more aggressive play while the latter probably makes golfers more conservative.  

I probably design 2/3 of my "Sunday Pins" towards the back of the green on downwind holes, and front of the green on headwind holes to help the golfer execute the shot. Similarly, most holes allow aiming at the middle and curving to the sunday pin -  ie wind blows right, toughest pin is on the right - and a straight shot hits the green, not a hazard.

I also tend to go with Sunday pin locations towards the back of the greens on long holes, and near the front of the green on shorter holes......to emphasize their respective hole lengths.  

In no case do I follow the above to a tee - I just realize I have developed those preferences.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Holcombe

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Re:Hole Locations
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 07:41:29 PM »
I think it is difficult to say because wind, firmness, slope and undulation will all have an influence. But, I find front locations usually play more difficult. A little short and you miss the green, long and you may have a down hill putt. Since most players will come up short they may still have a putt at a back pin, or an easier chip than to a short one.

Kyle Harris

Re:Hole Locations
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2005, 12:40:32 AM »
I started to think about this when I played a particular shot at Jeffersonville the other day.

I hit a wedge that started to leak a bit left and remember thinking to myself, "If it's hole high, it's alright and not in the bunker..."

It landed what I thought was hole high, but when I reached the green it actually was still between the green and the bunker. If it had landed hole high, it would have been kicked off the green pad by the build up just behind the bunker.

This got me thinking on if a hole location was more or less difficult based on what was to the left and the right. Most greenside bunkers gaurd some of the approach and maybe the middle third or half the green, leaving the back half as rough.

In the case of Jeffersonville, Schuylkill, and Lulu (All Ross), that back of the green is sometimes a drop off over the back and to the sides not gaurded by the bunker.

To me, that's what make back hole locations more difficult, at least on those courses. It would seem that courses where mounds frame the back of the green are similar difficult due to the downhill chip with little green to work with to stop the ball close. However, that feature seems more penal, as coming up a bank you can get creative with trajectory and using the bank to stop or kicking the ball in the air as needed.

Are "collection" or "saving" bunkers the only bunker that typically gaurds the whole side of a green, and not just the front third or half?

Jeff,

Do you use any other features that make your "Sunday" pins more difficult? What makes the "other" 1/3 of the pinsthat aren't in the rear of the green so difficult?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 12:42:31 AM by Kyle Harris »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hole Locations
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2005, 05:50:35 AM »
Kyle

Contact the USGA and ask for PJ's recommendations on this subject.  They are right on !

Willie

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