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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I love tight golf courses"
« on: June 09, 2005, 01:07:48 PM »
That quote from Peter Jacobsen, describing his philosophy for a new course in the Reno-Tahoe area, combined with the fact that the course will be 7,500+ yds, made me think this could be one penal combination for everyday play.  

I don't know what effect altitude could have, or the variation on lengths from the five tees, but there is no doubt that narrow and long this thing will be.

Peter Jacobsen interview
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kyle Harris

Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2005, 01:10:47 PM »
“Whenever you play a golf course that has a drivable par-4, that’s probably the tee you should play from on the whole course,” he said.

That's actually VERY good advice.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 01:35:51 PM »
Sorry, I disagree...the logic doesn't hold up in many examples.

I can reach #7 at Olympic from the front tee, but have no prayer from the back.  That doesn't mean that I should play the front or family tees on the rest of the course, does it?

Reverse, I could reach #7 at Sand Hills from the way back, but that doesn't mean I should play back there all day.  I could, and have, but it wasn't as well suited as the middle tees.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kyle Harris

Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 01:39:25 PM »
Kevin,

If I may, I'll expand what I think Peter was trying to say. I am not familiar with Olympic nor Sand Hills ( :o). However, are those holes designed as short and tempting (as in to drive the green, not merely get as close as possible) par 4s?

I am sure that most of us on this website can hit most of the par 4s at our local club from the forward tees, however, they weren't necessarily designed to be driven.

The quote may be vague, but does that seem reasonable?

And, of course, I don't necessarily follow that advice either. I'll typically play the back tees on most courses, just because if I were to play a tournament there, that's where I'd be playing from in all likelihood. I certainly don't mean to imply that EVERY golfer should follow this advice.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 01:41:53 PM by Kyle Harris »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 01:51:58 PM »

I am sure that most of us on this website can hit most of the par 4s at our local club from the forward tees, however, they weren't necessarily designed to be driven.


Talk about bifurcation -- I think we're seeing a steady parting of the ways on this board, as well. There's the Kyle Harris-Patrick Mucci-Matt Ward faction that hits the ball out of sight, and then there's the rest of us.

My home course is 6573 yards from the blues, and it gives me all I want, even with a Big Bertha II and a ProV1. From the red tees, here are the par 4 yardages:

334, 290, 340, 353, 365, 353, 335, 300, 306, 335.

Folks, I couldn't drive any of those holes.

That's why I continue to say a tournament ball is the answer. My course is way too short for the pros and their 125 mph clubhead speeds -- and apparently way too short for Kyle and Patrick. But it's just fine for me, new technology and all.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 02:26:01 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kyle Harris

Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 02:32:34 PM »
Rick,

I'm not terribly long. At most, I'll carry the ball 260-270 and get some roll out of it with my 8.5 degree Driver. I hit 7 iron about 160-165 on a decent day. However, I can get a ball rolling, and I can stop a ball with pretty much any club. I am also quite good at using topography to eeck out some more yardage.

Depending on topography, most of those holes wouldn't be drivable for me either. I can probably get to two of them with good shots.

Note that this whole thing is based on a conditional "if."

Also, please note that the course I profiled under "My Home Course" plays to 6300 yards from the tips  ;)

I would also like to add a little mea culpa. After doing some research, it would seem that a lot of courses have longer par 4s from the forward tees than I had thought. So, I'll retract the statement about being able to drive them from the fowards.

However, the logic behind said argument stands. If you could drive a Par 4 from the forwards, it doesn't mean the hole was meant to be drivable.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 02:41:58 PM by Kyle Harris »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 02:53:53 PM »
Kyle -- I agree with your basic point. :)
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 03:42:08 PM »
Kevin,

If I may, I'll expand what I think Peter was trying to say. I am not familiar with Olympic nor Sand Hills ( :o). However, are those holes designed as short and tempting (as in to drive the green, not merely get as close as possible) par 4s?

#7 at Olympic is short (<280 yds from the tips, but uphill) but isn't really tempting since the green is a small target.  The bunkers around the green are a decent place to end up, though.

#7 at Sand Hills is short and tempting, but it is much more risky going for the green with trouble left and a devilish sloping green.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 03:48:51 PM »
I second all that Kyle has said, and I too am not a long hitter..280 max off the tee and a 160 seven iron player.

I to love tight courses, and hate the idea of 7500 yard courses..I just dont get it...the answer is so simple..tighten the courses up...firm up the fairways so that balls drift into the rough...make the rough count..and firm up the greens..all of a sudden you dont need 7500 yard courses...Merion is still the best test of golf I have ever played, even before the newtee boxes.

Now there is a man who knows how to set up a golf course.

Kyle Harris

Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2005, 09:33:12 AM »
When you factor in that I actually play golf as a game where the ball bounces and rolls... my carry is only in the 230-250 range with the Driver, on my average day.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"I love tight golf courses"
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2005, 10:23:32 AM »
This thread identifies a basic difference in the philosophy of architecture.  Those advocating tight golf courses are generally doing so because they view narrow fairways with significant penalties for missing the fairways, e.g. thick rough, trees , water, as a means of controlling scoring by elite players.  Thus resistance to scoring is the primary objective for the architect under this formulation.  Proponents of this position neglect to mention the values that this approach abandons, most notably strategy and choice.  A tight penal golf course give the player little option but to try to drive the ball in the middle and hit the next one on the green.  No decisions regarding angle of approach, position in the fairway etc.  No room to adjust to strong winds or other unusual conditions.  Emphasis on heavy rough reduces shot making and recovery options.  Thought is reduced and replaced by an emphasis on the ability to repeat the swing and produce straight tee balls, all in the interest of  combatting the long hitter and rewarding only the long straight hitter.  The question is, which is the more interesting, the more fun game?  I submit that this is the real problem with the new equipment.  The shorter and more importantly, less correcting ball combined with driving clubs with smaller sweetspots made it more difficult for even elite players to swing full out and keep the ball in play.  The benefits from the extra distance produced by hard swinging were outweighed by the lost accuracy because players, who could not hit it as far due to the lesser equipment did not have the benefit of hitting only wedges from the rough like the modern bombers.  The straight hitter derived real benefit because he could best take advantage of the strategic options. The rare player who was truly long and straight such as Greg Norman in the 80's derived a tremendous advantage.  Finally, the courses did not have to be stretched and the average player had a better chance to experience playing the same courses as the pro's without being totally overwhelmed.  But the equipment genie is out of the bottle and efforts to put it back have not succeeded.  So the question remains; under current conditions how does one design?  Are designs to be intended to control the scoring for the touring pro or are they to be focused on providing a more balanced and pleasurable experience for a broader spectrum of players?  How an individual answers this question is likely to depend upon the importance of resistance to scoring in their value system.

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