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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« on: May 30, 2005, 07:16:42 PM »
I arrange and send a modest number of golfers to Ireland and Scotland each year.  Recently (the past couple of years) the poor pound and euro exchange rates against the dollar have discouraged many from making the trip.  My question to you folks with a better sense of international economics is, will the recent no vote by France regarding the EU constitution act to deflate the euor and pound exchange rates?

Thanks,

JC

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 07:20:53 PM »
Jon:  I'm not sure that the European constitution has much to do with exchange rates.

I saw that news item this morning and just for the hell of it, decided to find a text version of the Constitution to see what the French were objecting to.  I didn't make it past the first paragraph!  Let's just say T. Jefferson and J. Madison would not have done well as bureaucrats in Brussels!


ForkaB

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2005, 08:03:02 PM »
Jonathan

To paraphrase JP Morgan, exchange rates will fluctuate.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 08:05:48 PM »
Thomas - as Huxley once said, you're truly a "two cultured" man.  Thanks for the interpretation.  

For me an engineer, trying to read the EU constitution would be like trying to read Farsi.  I really hope the Scottish and Irish experience is not getting priced out of existence.

J
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 08:06:11 PM by Jonathan »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 08:07:55 PM »
Rich - fluctuate is fine, but an increase in the Euro over the past two years of 50% is more erosion than fluctuation.

JC

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 08:08:17 PM »
The dollar is in for long term weakness until the United States makes serious efforts to get some balancing of the deficit. I'm not as negative as the nay sayers but it will take some pretty good growth in combination with serious spending cuts/expense management to see long term strength in the dollar. The no (or as the French like to say "non") vote was expected and has already been priced into the market.


IMO, the United States Constitution as it was composed was as fine of a governing document that has ever been written. We may quibble, argue, disagree, protest and/or celebrate the interpretation and application but the basic governing ideas, rights, and protections are what make the United States Constitution one of the greatest documents ever composed. As an American on Memorial Day, I'm reminded that a great Constitution does not lead to a great nation. Rather it's the dedication and belief to stand-up for the ideals of your nation's Constitution that leads to greatness (both veterans and non-veterans).

« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 08:09:15 PM by Bill Gayne »

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 08:16:08 PM »
The euro will drop!

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2005, 08:16:56 PM »
Jonathan

The Australian Dollar to Euro (and English Pound) hasn't changed a lot over recent years.  However, the relationship of the $Aust to the US dollar has changed dramatically.  In 2000, we were less than $US0.50 to $Aust1.00, now we are about $US0.75 to $Aust 1.00 (there was a time about 30 years ago when it was $US1.50 to $aust1.00).

So, I think it is more the devaluing of the US$ rather than the revaluing of the Euro.  Its good for those in the USA that are exporting (or into import replacement and US vacations.  I undrstand that vegas is booming - could be related in part to the US$).  Not so good for those that are importing, or spenmding their money overseas.

If the UK and Ireland are too expensive, come down under.  Its about a 14 hour flight across the Pacific.  You might be able to buy more for your dollar here.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2005, 08:29:33 PM »
James - I've been and am planning to come again!  I'll be in NZ, Taz and Aus next Feb and will be bring a clan with me to defeat those upstarts Clayton, McCleer and Daley!  But for those of us on the east coast, Ireland and Scotland are just 7-8 hours away, not 7-8 light years away!

JC

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2005, 08:41:41 PM »
Jonathan

The Jacob's Creek Nationwide Tour event is on at Royal Adelaide in Adelaide during February.  Its presented for play just as the good Doctor would like it.  Let me know if you are going to travel across the desert from the East Coast of Oz to Adelaide (we are 450 miles, of not much, from Melbourne).

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2005, 09:28:32 PM »
From the Wall Street Journal online Today's Market Column.  

"A no from France is also expected to have an impact on the dollar, and many currency analysts expect the greenback to rally. In recent weeks, the dollar has jumped nearly 8% against the euro, partly due to anticipation of a no vote from France.

But some take the opposite view. Fil Zucchi, manager of the hedge fund Zebra Investment Advisors, says a recent move higher by precious metals stocks is bullish signal for the euro -- and an indication that a no vote is already factored into the value of the dollar against the euro.

"Typically precious-metals equities rally as the dollar weakens," he says, since investors often purchase companies that mine for precious metals as a leveraged play on a coming move in the commodity. On Friday, the Philadelphia Gold & Silver Index, an index of precious-metals mining companies, soared 3.7%. Mr. Zucchi said that move was an indication that investors are preparing for a weakening dollar, as hard assets such as gold tend to move inversely to soft assets, such as the greenback -- as well as stocks."

"I suspect that there's going to be a sell-the-dollar, buy-the-euro reaction" to a no vote in France, he said.

On Wednesday, citizens of the Netherlands will vote on the EU constitution. A poll released Friday by the ANP news agency shows the Dutch are also likely to vote no."


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2005, 11:14:33 PM »
Jonathan -

I am just back from 2 weeks in Dornoch. If there are fewer Americans going to GB&I this summer due to the decline of the dollar vs. the pound, it was not in evidence in Dornoch. The teetime reservation sheet at RDGC was booked solid from 7:00am to well into the afternoon almost every day I was there.

It is quite apparent that the French vote against the European constitution has strengthened the dollar vs, both the Euro and the pound, at least in the short run. In fact, the dollar has been rising (modestly) in value against both currencies for several months now, perhaps in anticipation of the French vote.    

Personally, I think the dollar will strengthen some more, but I would be surprised to see it gain more than 7% - 10% against those currencies from today's levels over the next 6-12 months. It may not even gain that much.

That is just a not particularly well-educated guess on my part!

DT

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2005, 12:01:17 AM »
Jon,
The reality is that both Scotland and Ireland will have to readjust their pricing as they rely too heavily on the U.S. market to face the drop in travel. One way or another, the correction will come.

ForkaB

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2005, 04:49:06 AM »
Ben

Neither "Scotland" nor "Ireland" price anything.  Individual clubs and hotels do, and they tend to act rationally, in line with market forces.  These forces tell the very top courses that their prices are still attractive vis a vis the competition (e.g. Bandon, Pinehurst--let's not even talk about Pebble Beach!).  As David Tepper says above, the great courses can get as many visitors as they want, at current prices and exchange rates.  And, the next tier of courses (e.g. North Berwick, The New Course, Brora, Ballyliffin)--which are better than 99% of the courses in the world--can still be played for $100 or less.  I blame any decline in visitors to the over-zealous price supplements added on by tour operators and to the significant number of potential customers who just don't really feel comfortable travelling outside North America in this post 9/11 world.  They might say it is the Euro, but they are really thinking Osama.

Jonathan

The pound is only up about 15% vs. the dollar in the past few years, and is declining again (as is its long term trend--1£ would have bought you $5 50 years ago!).

PS--I think you are thinking of CP Snow of "The Two Cultures" essay fame, and not any of the Huxleys, but I could be wrong.... :)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2005, 05:46:14 AM »
Just back from The Jersey Shore, and local news reports said Shore rentals are off 20% so far this year in part due to lower cost of air travel this summer. Not sure how true it is, but that is what was said.

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2005, 06:03:15 AM »
These are 2004 prices, and the US dollar was at a rate of 1.70 when the calculation was made.  IIRC the rate when we actually made the trip was higher, resulting in a total cost of approx $2200US.

Does not include airfare, since we were flying from as diverse places as Dallas TX, Windsor ON, Columbus OH, etc.

A Tour Company would be charging somewhere in the region of $5-6k for a similar trip - we priced them out then decided to make all the arrangements ourselves.   


RSG-SCOTLAND 2004               

COST SUMMARY                  
      UK POUNDS         
HOTEL         NIGHTS    RATE       TOTAL   
DORNOCH             3        35          £105.00   
                  
ST ANDREWS   8      30        £240.00   
                  
GOLF                  
DORNOCH -  72 HOLES   69     £276.00   
                  
CRUDEN BAY - 18 HOLES   £55.00    £55.00      
                  
ST ANDREWS OLD    +           £245.00      
3 DAY ALL YOU CAN PLAY                  
                  
CARNOUSTIE - 18 HOLES          £95.00   
                  
CRAIL - 36 HOLES         £55.00   
                  
VEHICLE RENTAL PP (ESTIMATED)   £88.00         
                  
                  
TOTAL                          £1,159.00   
                  
IN US DOLLARS @ 1.702 EXCHANGE RATE          $1,972.62    
IN CAN DOLLARS @ 2.20 EXCHANGE RATE          $2,572.98          

SCHEDULE                  
3-May   Leave US               
4-May   Arrive GLA , Drive to Dornoch optional Golf in Evening               
5-May   Royal Dornoch - 36 Holes               
6-May   Royal Dornoch - 36 Holes               
7-May   Cruden Bay - 18 holes,                
   Travel to St Andrews arr evening               
8-May   Play Crail 36 holes               
9-May   Free day               
10-May   PlayJubillee  plus all you can play               
11-May   Play New   plus all you can play               
12-May   Play Jubilleee  plus all you can play               
13-May   Play Old Course               
14-May   Play Carnoustie               
15-May   Travel Home ( sniff, sniff)               
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2005, 06:08:38 AM »
Mr Bennett,

Your 450 miles of not much includes:

Barwon Heads, Port Fairy.  The Great Ocean Road, some of the best farming land in the country and the Hampden Football League.  Wash your mouth out...

Vis a vis the exchange rate I will be riding it for the next year or so in advance of a planned trip.  Just hoping that the current high rate of exchange can last for another 12-24 months.  

Generally it seems to have been the Aussie dollar has correlated to and moved with the US Dollar against the others.  Now we have revalued against the US and staying reasonably static against the Euro and Pound.  

Also as far as most of the golf world is concerned a drop in the number of Americans travelling to Scotland and Ireland is not bad.  Possible drop or at least hold in fees and easier availability of tee times is welcomed.  

Would this be the result of less Americans?  Or would a reduction cause problems for the golf industry in the two countries.

Brent Hutto

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2005, 09:20:25 AM »
I know nothing about the economics of monetary supplies and exchange rate but isn't it the stated policy of the current US administration to encourage a weak dollar relative to the currencies of our trading partners?

Now it would be sheer hubris to think that the politicians in Washington can dial in whatever exchange rate they want but I'm sure their efforts result in it being somewhat weaker than it would if they had stuck with the status quo ante of always wanting a strong dollar.

I think at the mid to upper end of the golf tourism industry (which is the context of most discussions on this forum) what happens is that the big-name US golf resorts can simply charge more when the dollar is weak. I'll bet if you had the data you could show that the relative total cost of a trip to Pebble Beach, Pinehurst, St. Andrews and the Open courses at Troon/Turnberry has remained relatively constant over the last 15-20 years even though exchange rates have varied.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2005, 09:25:59 AM »
Jon

You just got back from Bandon-  My guess is that regardless of the exchange rates likely to be in place over the next year ANYONE living on the east coast of the US near an international airport will find the UK or Ireland much cheaper then a Bandon trip and with more variety in golf and social activities.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2005, 09:30:34 AM »
A couple of years ago, when the dollar was about 20% higher than it is now, I figured out that it is more expensive to fly from Atlanta to play golf a couple of days in and around Pebble Beach than it is to travel and play the same number of rounds at top tier courses in and around St. Andrews.

With the current exchange rate, my guess is that the two trips are now about equally expensive.

Bob

ForkaB

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2005, 09:32:11 AM »
Brett

20 years ago you could play TOC for about £15 and Pebble Beach for $150.  Today it is £135 and $425 respectively.  Vacations in Scotland are a LOT more expensive now than they were then, but, as Geoff C. so wisely notes below, it is still significantly cheaper than the US alternatives AND you get some culture thrown in as well!

Brent Hutto

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2005, 09:34:55 AM »
I didn't keep my notes but about a year ago I computed a pretty detailed comparison of golf trips for Bandon versus Edinburgh/St. Andrews/East Lothian, originating in Columbia, SC.

For a trip with five or six days of golf Bandon was a bit cheaper and the exchange rate would need to get below $1.70 or so to even things up. For a ten-day trip it looked more favorable to go to Scotland even at $1.90 and there was much more flexibility on the Scotland trip to mix in some budget/value courses and keep the total cost almost arbitrarily low.

Since then the prices at Bandon have increased slightly while the exchange rate has stayed about the same. Also, I think from a lot of east-coast originating points going to Glasgow and playing in Ayrshire would lessen the airfare difference considerably. So Geoff is right, there are parts of the US where going to Bandon may cost a small premium over even the exchange-rate-inflated bill for a Scotland trip.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2005, 09:39:19 AM »
I don't have statistics to back up my premise, but I'm pretty sure that golf green fees in the British Isles have risen in the past twenty years at a rate substantially above inflation and the national average wage.  We have not had an economic crash for some years, but the last one crippled a number of high-end golf establishments, not so much those geared to wealthy foreign visitors, more those aimed at company golf.  I am aware that many new resorts and courses have cost an absolute fortune to build and to maintain and it only takes an economic downturn of a few percentage points and their sums no longer add up.  

However, I see a serious problem arising in the Republic of Ireland because its new-found wealth is mostly EC money.  It is not a self-sustaining country with an industrial base and the money will not last for ever.  The cost of living and housing in the Republic has rocketed and income from tourism cannot be depended on when the vast majority of its tourists come from one country, albeit a big one and a rich one.  Its climate will not attract many Europeans if the Americans were to dwindle in numbers.  


ForkaB

Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2005, 09:49:36 AM »
Correction!  TOC is £115/round this year.

Bob C

No way, Jose!  It isn't even close.  Here are some numbers at today's exchange rates and prices:

Pebble Beach--Golf (one round)

PB                          $425
Spyglass                 $290
Pasatiempo              $150(est.)

Edinburgh--Golf (one round)

Muirfield                  $220 (est.)
TOC                        $210
North Berwick           $110 (est.)

Hotels

Pebble Beach--Ocean View                              $800/night
Gullane/Edinburgh/St. Andrews--Ocean view       $500/night

What tour operator were you using? ;)

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Costs of Scotland and Ireland
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2005, 10:06:03 AM »
Rich,
Sorry not to have classified the Irish and Scottish golf travel market, which seemed clear given the topic.

However, Rich, my point remains correct. You refer to Pinehurst and Bandon. The major reality is that airfares have gone up, as well as the dollars demise. "Keeping in line" with Pinehurst if you are Turnbery has one significant disadvantage, an eight-hour flight.

Furthermore Rich, the great courses are looking for visitors too. Everyone in tourism in the U.K. and Ireland bemoans the drop in American tourists. It is not just the dollar, but also the demographics shifting and the same guys who made yearly trips seeing a shift in their personal travel.

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