[George_Bahto]

Here are a few photos of NGLA showing ongoing green and fairway expansion being done by super, Bill Salinetti - photos from last fall (plus a couple other photos)

2 photos of 1 green:






green expansion on #6:




green and surround on the Alps:




Hill Bunker area right of 13-green:




New back tee on hole 14:




I could never resist this picture - the right fairway hollow on hole 16:




NGLA - treeless once more:

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Expanding the greens so that the perimeter slopes feed the adjacent bunkers is something I've been advocating for years.
It's a wonderful feature that places a high premium on approach and recovery shots to a great number of hole locations.

There is no place like NGLA, especially when the wind is up.

[Ted Kramer]

Thanks George,

I actually just put down "The Evangelist . . ." to see what was going on online and saw this post.

Your photos and insights regarding NGLA are a great resource for those of us that don't have access to the club/course. Thanks for taking the time to post this stuff.

-Ted

[Bill_McBride]

The Valley Club has just done a lot of the same work, adding what appears to be several acres of closely mown grass around greens, several times connecting adjacent fairways to green side collection areas.  This has greatly expanded chipping areas and also increased the penalty for off line shots, as the ball rolls and rolls until it finds level ground.  This reflects some of the Pinehurst #2 style but the NGLA photos have a similar, very attrractive and interesting look.

[George_Bahto]

Bill. I thought of the similarity to PH #2 also.

I think that the surrounds at NGLA are not as penal as #2 ....   remember all the flack when they had the Open there?

The falloffs at National seem to flow much more naturally into the surrounding terrain.

I played Chechessee the other day and C & C had a lot of that going on in many areas.

aside:   We talk a lot about these course and I think we forget that so many of "us" on this insanity-website have not seen many of these courses.  Aerials are nice but to see the holes from ground level (hard to capture, often) is so different.

That's why I posted the hollow on the right of #16.

[George_Bahto]

Here is a sequence that sort of captures the 1st fairway ......... a mere 322 or so yards. If you could, take your “4" and go on to hole 2 - wouldn’t be a bad idea to many.

Hole 1 from the tee:



near beginning of the fairway:



from right cartpath at beginning of the fairway:



from left fairway to green:



from left rough to green:





...... and the hollow on hole 2: this from the green looking back towards the tee. These hollows he built (here, on 4, on 16 etc) are pretty amazing considering the time frame and the equipment he was working with (Mr. Mortimer Payne, his scoop and his “team” of animals built the course)

hole 2, the hollow where most balls end up off 2-tee:

[ed_getka]

Those hollows on NGLA are one of the really cool things I like about the course. You can play safe off the tee and be in the fairway, but then you end up in the hollow and have a blind approach. What an effective "hazard".

[Anthony_Nysse]

The white dots on the greens are where the cleanup laps are for the greens mowers. We do it here all the time.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Tom_Doak]

George:  What makes you think Macdonald "built" the hollow on #2, instead of just locating his hole to take advantage of a natural hollow?

The same hollow stretches way over to in front of the practice tee at Sebonack ... so I'm pretty sure most of it was already there.

[George_Bahto]

Tom Doak:
"The same hollow stretches way over to in front of the practice tee at Sebonack ... so I'm pretty sure most of it was already there"


I'm sure you're right Tom - I never traced over to the Sabonack property.

I was really speaking of the hollows in general.

gb

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Pat and George may think some of those "hollow" at NGLA were built by Macdonald/Raynor (#2, #16 etc). I tend to think they were just there. If one analyzes the topography that stretches along a narrow band (perhaps not more than 200-400 yards wide) of the North Fork of LI (obviously all the way from some of the holes of Shinnecock to Frair's Head) one see some very odd natural topopgraphy where that kind of thing is anything but uncommon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How did I get included in the above post ?
I never mentioned anything about the nature of the hollows.

However, I think the hollow on # 10 might have been partially caused by the need for fill for the 8th green complex.

If the hollow on # 16 is natural, is the spine man made ?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Cool pictures George

Was that the day Tony Pioppi called you to say hello from Southampton and it turned out you were about 200 yards away from us?   Seeing NGLA is a thrill every time.  Its just so much better the last couple of years under Bill's care.  There is certainly a lesson to be learned by MANY clubs from what's going on at NGLA!

[George_Bahto]

Geoffrey - that's one of the reasons for the posted pictures.

[TEPaul]

"If the hollow on # 16 is natural, is the spine man made?"

Pat:

At this point it's probably impossible to say without the help of a pre-construction topo map. No comprehensive pre-construction topo map exists of NGLA, as far as I know. Perhaps one never did. That course was pretty early for that kind of thing. As far as I know (and this is from George) Macdonald or Raynor may've drawn a few contour or elevation lines on a fairly simple course plan only where they saw the need for it. I assume where they drew those contour lines where they felt they needed to those contours were probably natural---but perhaps not.

My sense is that the entire fairway of #2 and #16 including the hollows are natural topography. Again, if one looks at that narrow band of land extending perhaps 300 or so yards wide along the North Fork or North side of the Island down there that kind of topography is not unusual. Did you ever see the dunes section of Friar's Head before the course went into construction? How about the enormous hollow fronting the 10th green at Shinnecock? Do you think that was man-made?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

George, Thank you for the pictures. It does inspire one to fight that much harder in the Green Comm Meetings at ones own club.

[George_Bahto]

John: we need as much ammo as possible trying to explain what needs to be done.

How can we get them beyond "fairness"

* beyond "gee, my wife gets in that bunker"

* beyond "wadda you mean there was a bunker in the middle of the fairway?"

* beyond "why is that bunker so steep?"

* ..... why so deep?"

* .......  "no collars around the green? - there was always a collar, how else would the ball stop before going into the bunker ..."

* "wadda you mean there were no trees? - trees "frame" the hole, don't they?" - and so do those mounds ..... they keep the ball in the fairway!"


oh brother!!

gb

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

George, lol lol I hear all the above all the time and it is such a struggle to overcome them. My new one is fighting curbing etc on cart paths and roping off huge areas that potentially become worn because of those same mounds. It seems that people take the path between the mounds to the next tee rather than climb over them. I wonder who could not have forseen that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think you're right about the absence of early topos.
From what I've read it seems that the area wasn't conducive to survey work.

But, you're confusing "hollows" with "bowls", or at least not distinguishing between the two. and there is a huge difference.

For a bowl to exist I think man's hand may have been required.
While the soil may be good, drainage would be a problem, yet, I don't recall the bowls on # 16 being saturated after good rains.

Perhaps deep core samplings would assist with determining the origins of the spine and bowl features.  

The theme of the entire hole is "punchbowl" , and I don't think it was confined to the green, I think CBM or SR had a hand in it.

You also have to remember that "spines" are a constant theme at NGLA, on the greens, in the fairways and roughs.

[Mike Hendren]

What little I know about The National Golf Links of America I have learned from this web-site and George Bahto's outstanding book.  I have little doubt that it is among the greatest golf courses in the world and am thoroughly fascinated by it.  

That said, is the current work restoration, tinkering, or a combination thereof?

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Terraserver has topos of the area, but, since I don't subscribe I can't zoom in beyond 8 meters.  Perhaps someone who has access to topo providers could help.

Tom Doak,

Where did you obtain your topos ?
Did you have them shot, or did you acquire existing topos ?

[George_Bahto]

Mike H: The present work on the course is not in the least, tinkering. Everything being done is/has been based on documented information; drawing, photos etc.., with the exception of some lengthening .... and in all but one case the intended line of play has not been compromised and in that case (new #14 tee, the new line of play may even be better than the CB line of play after he moved 14-green .....  my opinion).

My posts about NGLA are MY opinions but are based on pretty "solid" information and I am also not a spokesperson for anyone at the club.

I'm speaking from what I know - understandably, the principals are probably not comfortable posting NGLA info, for all the reasons we've discussed before.

[TEPaul]

"But, you're confusing "hollows" with "bowls", or at least not distinguishing between the two. and there is a huge difference."

Patrick:

I'm doing what? Jeeeesus Christ, call them whatever you want to---I think we all know we're talking about the same things. Terraservers won't do any good to determine what that land looked like or whether those bowls or hollows or whatever you want to call them were there as they are now before Macdonald/Raynor built that golf course. That was 90 years ago. What we need to tell if they're natural is a topo contour map that was done before the course was built. Do I have to explain everything to you?

[Mike Hendren]

George,

Thanks for the reply.  Tinkering was the only word that came to mind and perhaps inadvertantly carried a negative connocation.  That was not my intent.  

YOUR opinion is precisely what I was looking for as well as comments from other treehouse members intimately familiar with the golf course.  

Thanks.  

BTW, when are you going to make available your excellent rendering on the inside cover of "The Evangelist" for purchase?  I'm waiting.

Mike

[TEPaul]

The so-called "restoration" of NGLA, perhaps years in the making, really got on a roll recently. It's about as good as one could imagine. The pay-off to the restoration of NGLA is the club and their maintenance dept pretty much nailed the ideal maintenance meld for that particular course too. All around restorations don't get much better than this one.

Should NGLA be considered a pace-setter this way? Would they want to be considered that?

Should the club make George Bahto and honorary member? I think so. If they did, George would pretty much have to agree to go over to Shinnecock and punch somebody out at the bar just on general priniciples. He'd pretty much have to go over to Sebonac and punch out Doak or Nicklaus for having the gall to build a golf course on land that C.B should have bought too. He'd have to deck Pascusso as well for building a clubhouse in the situation Sebonac's is planned for. It might be pretty and delightful for Sebonac but it's damned disrespectful to NGLA---and that will never do!

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