Better late than never.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Before we teed off I asked each foursome to analyze the hole they were starting on so that we could continue the discussion after golf.

Hor d oeuvres and beverages seemed to take precedence and the discussion never occured.

Would the participants describe their impression of their starting hole.

Thanks

[George Pazin]

We started on #1.

It sets the tone quite nicely. The tempting bailout is right center, as there is a lot of room (though not enough for me!) But the entry to the green favors an approach from the left. Of course, the golfer driving left flirts with trees on the approach.

The green itself is full of character, with a good bit of bumps and undulations. Nothing like a vexing putt on the opening hole.

Not an easy hole, but not a killer, either. All in all, a very nice start to the round.

A wonderfully short walk to the 2nd green awaits....

[blasbe1]

We started on 4, a long very much redan like hole with green sloping from front right to back left.  With a menacing deep greenside bunker front left any deep left pin is very intimidating, especially to the first time player who may not be aware that a right to left shot to the right side of the green should work left.

The best appreciation for the green is from behind, where it appeared after playing the hole it was better to be long than short with most pin locations (except way back left) because this would leave an uphill pitch.

A strong hole that I don't think needs to be played at 220 to be a stern test and would likely be more enjoyable for most at about 175 or so.    

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, that sounds a lot like the original Redan at North Berwick, where the best miss is long for an easy uphill chip.  And NB's Redan plays about 180-190 from the usual tee, better as you say than 225, at least in terms of the variety of clubs which can be played.   How deep is the front bunker?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Since I am computer challenged and cannot post a picture from another website, take a look at the 4th here:

www.hiddencreekclub.com/course_photos/default.asp?Page=3&ShowSub=photos

click on photo to enlarge

[Bill_McBride]

Hmmmm.  Not as much uphill, not as much downhill (on the green), not as much right to left slope as the original.  At least that's what it looks like in these photos.  So "Redan-ish" would probably be the best description.  There does look to be some right to left kickplate.   Beautiful place out there, I envy those who had the chance to play.

[blasbe1]

Hmmmm.  Not as much uphill, not as much downhill (on the green), not as much right to left slope as the original.  At least that's what it looks like in these photos.  So "Redan-ish" would probably be the best description.  There does look to be some right to left kickplate.   Beautiful place out there, I envy those who had the chance to play.

Bill,

You can't appreciate the front right to back left tilt of the green from the tee, from behind it is impressive, unfortunately I did not have a camera.

Can anyone post a photo of 4 green from the behind?  Mr. Mucci, do you have one?

 

[Eric Pevoto]

We started at the 11th, playing about 120, slightly uphill.  The wind was swirling and rather light, but seemed mostly downwind.  

As Ran notes in the course writeup, this one is sandwiched between two long holes, and as such, is a nice change in tempo.  

The green is smallish (for HC) and the most notable feature may be the false front that creates the horizon of the skyline.  If I remember correctly, beyond, the green falls slightly away and to the left.  

Odd for a hole so short, but you do have options; it's mostly a question of trajectory .  It's a great spot for a lower shot into the false front that releases just over the ridge.  Otherwise, a higher shot with more spin carried deeper into the green will work as well.  Wind conditions certainly play a role in the decision.

Someone in the group (maybe Steve Sayers) said the hole always reminded him of PV #10.  I would agree. Though PV is clearly downhill, the place in the tempo of the routing is similar.  Other similar short holes would be Applebrook's #11 and French Creek's #5 (with a much flatter green).

There aren't enough holes like this built today.

[TEPaul]

Bill Coore, Ian Dalzell (head pro) and Jeff Riggs (super) were looking carefully directly behind this green to take fairway cut height beyond the green far enough so a ball slightly over this green would not automatically end up in rough grass. This would increase recovery club selection options.

According to Bill Coore this hole is an interesting one in routing sense---as to how holes tend to fit or sequence together in attempting to use available interesting topography for golf best.

I'd never noticed it before (there isn't that much topographical change at Hidden Creek and what there is of it is pretty subtle and obviously Bill Coore was attempting to max it for such things as green sites and driving LZs) but #11 green sits atop a narrow ridge that continues on to the right and broadens out to encorporate #15 green, #16 tee and #17 green and on down that hole.

Where #11 green sits the ridge is narrow (shallow to the incoming shot). So this would call for a pretty short par 3 to such a shallow and high target. This may've set the stage for the long par 4 10th hole to get that green close to the appropriate spot to make a tee on #11 work well to the 11th green. But the interesting thing is the next tip tee is close to the 11th green too and that tee (#12) just happens to work about perfectly with a tee shot on #12 (tips) that needs to carry about 260 yards to the top of the ridge on #12 fairway!!

And then again, the 15th green uses that same ridge too for it's green site for an approach from the same valley that creates the demanding tee shot on #12 to the ridgeline on #12 fairway.

All this was found and used this way---these elevations were not made.

[Eric Pevoto]

That's interesting.  An example of fitting those puzzle pieces together!

Link to topo map of HC

Here's a topo of the golf course.  The eleventh tee sits just about where the red cross or x is seen.  The hole plays east southeast to the nose of the ridge.  The twelfth then plays east southeast from ridge to ridge.

[cary lichtenstein]

My favorite hole was the par 3  4th. 220 years into a stiff wind, I shorted my grip on my driver,  and was fortunate to hit a really good shot.

The green is very deep and I got to appreciate the design of the green, because an other holes designed like this would never have recieved the ball and still have a putt.

I think a front pin placement is probably the toughest here.

[Jason Topp]

Pat - I really like the idea of having each group memorialize impressions of their starting hole.  I hope other groups contribute to this thread.  It is more interesting to me as one who has never seen the course than generalized impressions of the course as a whole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Don't ever apply for a job as a photo analyst for the CIA.
[/color]

Hmmmm.  Not as much uphill,

The green does rise quite abruptly from 40 yards short of it.[/color]

not as much downhill (on the green),

The green falls sharply from high right to low left.[/color]

not as much right to left slope as the original.

There is plenty of slope from high right to low left.[/color]  

At least that's what it looks like in these photos.  
That's why you can't rely solely on photos to provide you with an accurate presentation of a feature or hole.[/color]

So "Redan-ish" would probably be the best description.  There does look to be some right to left kickplate.   Beautiful place out there, I envy those who had the chance to play.
In addition to being beautiful, it's quite peaceful.
There's something unique about playing a golf course and only hearing the songs of the birds in the woods.[/color]

[Geoffrey Childs]

Well we started on hole #10 which begins a very intersting stretch of holes at Hidden Creek that consist of a very long par 4 (470) followed by a very short (130) par 3 followed by another long par 4.

Roger Hanson described how he thought #10 might be too long at 470 yards so he asked pro Ian Daizell to see what he thought.  Ian played it twice with driver 8 iron so Roger believed it was fine.

My group then decided before playing the hole that we would just say to the group that the hole was a simple par 4, driver 9 iron just past the hole leaving a short uphill birdie putt (the green falls away from the player).

Well, someone (Pat !  ) put the pin on the front and just short of quite a severe dropoff towards the back of the green.  Tiger Woods couldn't have stopped a wedge just past that pin.  That summarizes the complexity, variety and interest in the greens at Hidden Creek. For mortals a reasonable drive leaves an approach that depending on the wind could be a wood or a mid to short iron that needs to take into account the pin location and the firmness of the ground.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,
     That hole is not a "redan". The most important feature missing is that the tee shot is certainly downhill


   It seems that every par three that has an angled opening to the green is  called "redanish"-not true.

  BTW  this does show how a repeat play can help; I hit more club and went long left--if I could chip and putt at all the strategy would have worked.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Malone,

Is # 2 at Somerset Hills not considered a Redan because it's downhill from the tee ?

Geoff Childs,

I thiought the pin position was perfect.
I hit a 2-iron to 15 feet.
Then again, you are a lefty

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat  

Who said it wasn't perfect?  Our group loved it.  Instead of nine iron just past the pin I hit wedge just short.  Lefties with use of a cart get to go up and scout the pin location.  We're smarter then most righties.  

[Willie_Dow]

 Pat

Starting on #3, 535 Par 5 with the quarry on the right, I immediately said to myself - if I play this left, I can get there in four.   Which I did.  Second and third shot 5 iron.

Wayne didn't like the quarry !

[John Foley]

Pat,

We started on #9. Fairly wide open tee shot where going home in two was close to impossible. Only the mot impressive drive would have a thought at getting home in two. Given that, you must hit the FW. If you don't then clearing the roughed/unmainted/bunkers crossing the fairway area will be a problem. landing area for a layup i wide, but don't go left as a few ball eating bunkers & fescue await. A layup hugging the left side is definetly a better shpt.

The approach to the green is open. You can fly it in, bump & run & even putt from way off. The green itself is huge w/ a multitude of pins w/ small ripples.

Excellent challaenging and fair hole.

[JESII]

We started at the 11th, playing about 120, slightly uphill.  The wind was swirling and rather light, but seemed mostly downwind.  

As Ran notes in the course writeup, this one is sandwiched between two long holes, and as such, is a nice change in tempo.  

The green is smallish (for HC) and the most notable feature may be the false front that creates the horizon of the skyline.  If I remember correctly, beyond, the green falls slightly away and to the left.  

Odd for a hole so short, but you do have options; it's mostly a question of trajectory .  It's a great spot for a lower shot into the false front that releases just over the ridge.  Otherwise, a higher shot with more spin carried deeper into the green will work as well.  Wind conditions certainly play a role in the decision.

Someone in the group (maybe Steve Sayers) said the hole always reminded him of PV #10.  I would agree. Though PV is clearly downhill, the place in the tempo of the routing is similar.  Other similar short holes would be Applebrook's #11 and French Creek's #5 (with a much flatter green).

There aren't enough holes like this built today.

Interesting note; our group, if you recall Eric, made a two, a three, a four and a five. With a slight helping wind to a benign pin position (middle/middle), I wonder if this spread is indicative of the holes challenge.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Neil Regan hit driver off the deck to the back of the green in two on #9.  I didn't think it was possible but he did it. His drive was perfectly placed on the left just before the fairway ended. For mere mortals, one has to balance avoiding the trees on the left with bailing too far right into the well placed string of fairway bunkers.  The angles for the second shot on #9 work VERY well and thereby make possible what is probably the most difficut job for an architect- that is an interesting and thought provoking second shot into a par 5.

I think the 2nd shot into #3 is also fantastic and Coore and Crenshaw are probably the best in history at that architectural feature (Sand Hills #1 & 16 - Friars Head #'s 7 and 14)  WOW!

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Foley,

I've found that if I don't keep my tee shot to the right, I'm left with an awkward stance to an awkward angle for my second shot.

Hitting it down the right side off the tee, the riskier side, leaves you with a great angle of attack on your second shot.

All too often drives to the left leave me with a more difficult second shot, often requiring me to lay back with an iron, leaving me a longer approach to the green.

I had to punch a 4-iron through the trees on the left to get to the green because my drive on the left side of the fairway forced me to play a hook, which I pulled.

Many of the holes look easier than they play and I think # 9 is one of them.

[George Pazin]

Didn't Raynor build several holes that he called redans that were downhill? Isn't the redan at Yale downhill? Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to call #4 redanish. It's also less downhill from the 200 tee.

Considering the bunker shot I had, I'm happy to have made a 4 on #4.

[Neil Regan]

Geoff Childs,

[On #10]
I thiought the pin position was perfect.
I hit a 2-iron to 15 feet.
Then again, you are a lefty

Here's the green on #10.
With that pin, 15 feet is what you need for a 2-putt.

Pat, how deep is this green ? 50 yards ?

I'd say it's relatively easy to bounce a ball onto this green, even with a brassie. But, as with other greens at Hidden Creek, you'll learn over time what part of the wide fairway allows you your best angle. Another part of the fairway will better suit another player. And if you're long enough on this 475-yard hole to be hitting a high shot in, I think you'd discover that the shelf behind this pin will throw even a very good drop shot or spinner to the back of the green if it's been hit just a little past the pin.

[John Foley]

Pat,

Absolutley playing down the right hand side off the tee opens up the second shot as the tree's at the corner and the angle of the fw at the turn could cause you fits. Due to a very poor drive, I had to lay up short of the crossing rough, but going right there did make for a much easier shot than from the left.

Do you think if that area of crossing rough was maintained as fairway would encourage a more riskier route down the righ from the up tee's?

Geoff,

Neil hit driver off the deck on the green!! WOW. What was the yardage he had in from where he hit his drive? Did the bunker on the left come into play at all? Was it raised and if so did it impede his attemept at all?.

Is reaching #9 in two a big deal. Did anyone else? I'd love to know how much of an actual risk reward it is as I had percieved it as being a definate three shot hole. Don't have my card near me.