[astavrides]

I thought it would be interesting to see some kind of family tree of architects.  It could either be a family tree such as who used to work for whom as below (but with better graphics or colors or something and multiple generations) or else a stylisting grouping list such as minimalists (Doak, Hanse, etc), innovators, earth-movers, golden agers, dark agers.  One could give some more thought to the categories and architects could appear in more than one category.

Pete Dye:
Perry
P.B.
Doak
etc.

RT Jones, Sr:
Rees
RTJ, JR
Rulewich
etc.


I don't really have the knowledge or motivation to do a good one myself I dont think.

[ed_getka]

Good thought Alex. I have been pondering this geneaology thing for a while, but just haven't gotten off my butt to start asking. Unfortunately, I don't have any computer skills, but if you can do some kind of chart here I will help acquire info.

[T_MacWood]

Alex
Geoffrey Cornish did this a couple of years ago and it was published in Sports Illustrated. He identifed something like seven sub families. I can't remember them all, but I think Stanley Thompson was one, with RTJ underneath. Dye was one. I don't recall if there was an Old Tom Morris tree. I know one was Douglas Rolland...which I thought hurt the credibility of the excercise.

[Jim Thompson]

Treehouse,

I have begun the project.  I'm certain there will be some errors but that you all will help flush them out and we can make a very good tree.  Should be around Monday completion.  I see not less than 34 lines.

Cheers!
JT

[RJ_Daley]

Sounds like fun Jim.  Will your tree show familial lines only, or schools, like the Chicago School, Philidelphia School, etc.?  

Was RB Harris, a family tree branch, a cult, or a school or tradition?  Just out of that Harris-Chicago school, there are several family traditions.  Nugents, Packards, Phelps, and I think others.

Before Harris, could there have been another separate Chicago school that includes Foulis, Bendelow, Langford?

Could there also be some family feuds, like Hatfields and McCoys?

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

Not sure about Foulis, but the others could be dubbed the American Park Builders School, since I think they all started there, did they not?  Not sure where Roseman, Wagstaff and a few others came from in the Chicago area and whether or not that is a real tree branch.  I suspect many had some ties to American Park Builders.

I think Harris deserves to be a family tree, having come out of nowhere in the gca field through land planning and landscape architecture, as opposed to starting out working for someone else in the golf design field.  

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, could C.B. technically be called the head of a separate Chicago family tree or school-tradition since he started there?  I can't wait to see Jim's work and what trees he identifys.  There must be some inside  ASGCA humor in here as well.  Something about so-and-so's family tree doesn't fork, or remains a twig...

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

There is always humorous potential! But, seriously......despite the focus on the top guys, if you go to places like Kansas and Nebraska, there are still several golfers who hold relative unknowns like Floyd Farley, etc.. in high awe for what they did for local golf on limited budgets.

I was going to post in regard to the RBHarris tree, that it shouldn't be discounted no matter what you think of his work or legacy.  Ditto for whatever tree holds all those low budget, midwestern gca types.  If someone hadn't built those sand greens in Kansas, there would be no Colbert Hills, Flint Hills, or Cottonwood Hills out there today.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will also say the tree is more complicated than it ever used to be when most guys could be directly traced to their mentors.  Over the years, there have been many architects like Jay Moorish who have worked for Jones, Nicklaus and Fazio.  In which school do you put him?  Where they started, or where they made their biggest name?

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey Cornish found there were six major trees: Pete Dye, Allan Robertson, George Fazio, Douglas Rolland, AW Tillinghast and Stanley Thompson.

Macdonald and the Chicago architects are not accounted for on his chart.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I know Pete Dye's tree includes:

(In My mind) Jack Nicklaus
PB Dye
Perry Dye
Bill Coore
Tom Doak
Tim Liddy
Bobby Weed

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, I absolutely believe Harris must have a very prestigious family tree.  If it weren't for the Harris school followers, Wisconsin would practically be a wasteland, devoid of good golf courses.  You sir are a strong branch of that tree, IMO.  Are there any little Brauer twigs begining to bud out?  How about associates under your guidance that may eventually strike out on their own?  

I think we talked about this before Jeff.  Yet, I can't remember if you added thoughts that you do or do not consider yourself as part of the Harris tradition.  Not that your work is identifiable specifically by virtue of design characteristics as being strictly out of that tradition.  You all develop your own style and techinques, of course.  But, your mentors are your mentors, whether you emulate them or not. Killian and Nugent were Harris's protege's, and you Borland, Lohmann, Nugent's son, Packards son, Phelps son and others came out of that line.  Hell, how many of you guys out of that lineage have been past presidents of ASGCA.  I think it is quite remarkable really.

[ed_getka]

I'm not so much interested in the tree aspect, as when who interacted with who. I know Gil Hanse and Tom Doak worked together at some point. Mike DeVries worked with Tom Fazio, but I think he also intersected with some others along the way. Todd Eckenrode was with Gary Roger Baird, but I would imagine he rubbed shoulders with some other guys during that tenure that led to him producing Barona Creek. I think I'm most interested in the shoulder rubbing that has gone on in the last 15 years.
   
Jeff,
   Who have you worked with along the way that most of us might know, and who were influential on what you are doing today?

[ian]

The Thompson tree should start with George Cumming, branching out to each of the Thompsons. The tree does not start with Stanley.

Ian

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

That's a great point. You could probably take the "Thompson tree" back to Colt, actually. I have to believe that Cumming learn a lot from Colt's work at Toronto Golf Club before he started laying courses out on his own. Or did he design a course pre-1910?

[Brian Phillips]

Ian and Jeff,

Is it true Cumming only entered the Toronto Clubhouse twice the whole time he was there?

Brian

[Jeff_Mingay]

Brian,

I hadn't heard that before, but it's believable considering the status pros carried back then.

BTW, I didn't have much time, but I was looking around the Old Course Hotel for you during your European architects conference. I was there simultaneously (not at the conference, obviously). Sorry I missed you.  

[ian]

Jeff,

Cumming predates Colt's arrival. He was active long before then. I would not connect Colt to that tree, rather all the early members of the tree were influenced by Colt's work.

Brian, I have heard the same story too. I just can't confirm it for you.

[ed_getka]

Ian,
    What is your personal "tree", besides working for the firm you are currently with? Who has come through that firm that is now out on their own that we should watch for in the future? What work of others, and courses you have seen have been most influential in what you are trying to do as an architect?

Brian and Jeff,
    Same questions for you if you don't mind filling us in on your bio.

Mike Young,
    I noticed you were on the site, so if you have time to add your info that would be great.

[Mike_Clayton]

I'm not sure if this constitutes a tree but MacKenzie came to Australia and worked with Mick Morcom and Alex Russell.
Morcom build all the work and was replaced as greenkeeper at Royal Melbourne by Claude Crockford - who built Russell's designed 7th hole on the West Course and moved the 12th green
Graeme Grant and his brother Bruce worked for Crockford  (who was at RM for 40 years) as kids before going on to the some of the best courses in Melbourne - Kingston Heath,Victoria,The National -  and both are involved in design - Bruce with me and Graeme worked with Jack Newton for a long time.
Bruce and I obviously were involved at Barnbougle with Tom Doak - so I guess there is some sort of connection there.
Certainly the style of Morcom's work has pervaded our thinking.

[Brian Phillips]

Ed,

My tree is a grumpy old engineer that taught me as much as I could learn about construction and engineering in a company called Veidekke (direct translation road surface).

The guy is called Ragnar Aune and he is an engineer that first employed me in 1993 to work as a setting out surveyor on a shopping mall.  He taught and shouted at me over many years (and still does) about how to construct things correctly.

I got the job (not speaking a word of Norwegian at the time) because he was as obsessed with golf as I was in those days.  We got on like a house on fire and he still treats to this day as a second son.

We took him to the EIGCA conference that Jeff mentioned just a few weeks ago as a thank you.  We played TOC, Jubilee and the New.  Jeff you should just have just posted here as I logged on everyday....sorry I didn't see you..

I moved onto golf course construction within the same company and was in charge of starting the division and managed it until I quit and moved into design.

Guess who badgered and encouraged me to do so...?

Yep, Jeff Brauer.  No other person encouraged me more about four or five years ago to jump in with both feet.  I set up my own company called Phillips Golf Design and worked for Jeremy Turner who encouraged me to take the Masters course in Edinburgh.

Which I did.  I remortgaged the the house, took up a student loan and moved the whole family over to Scotland for a year.  I passed the course and moved back and teamed up with renegade designer Graeme Webster who is a very good friend.

We formed Niblick Golf Design almost like a sister company to his company in Scotland called Team Niblick.  Graeme Designs and builds with that company but I refuse to get involved in construction anymore although I help price jobs now and then for Graeme.  So we have two offices one in Aberdeen that Graeme runs and we have the 'Oslo' office that I run.

Jeff was my biggest influence and it is he I owe for encouragin me to jump in as well as people like Tom D etc. who I met at Sand Hills as I was just starting out.

That is my tree....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed and RJ,

My sole training came from Killian and Nugent - 1977 until their breakup in 83. I spent about nine months with Killian before going to Texas to start my own firm.  As RJ notes, K and N  were a second generation of the Harris tree.

Even if I use computer rather than pens, you can see the influence of RBH in all our plans, with big scale green details and the belief that you can get it pretty close on plan.  Any thing other than minor changes are unusual, although I have found (contrary to Harris) that its those changes that can make a course better.

Bob Lohmann, Jim Blaukovitch, the late Bruce Borland, Stan Gentry, Tim Nugent and I are all members of the third generation.  Jim Engh worked for Nugent for a few years, too.

In my case, I have spawned Jeff Blume of Houston and John Colligan and Steve Plumer, still down the street here in Arlington.  Chet Williams of the Nicklaus organization cut his teeth with me, as did Steve Wieser of Rees Jones office.

Brian,

Aw Shucks.  Of course, you get the credit for your own success.  I just told you to sh** or get off the pot!

If anyone does a tree and wonders how an offshoot of RBH got to Sweeden, they only need to look at golf club atlas.  However, I will be proud to add you to my list of proteges anytime.......

[Jeff_Mingay]

ed,

I guess I'm a member of the "Dye tree" having worked principally with Rod Whitman over the past 5-6 years. (Although I've never met Pete face-to-face!)

Funny, it just hit me too, that I've also done some work with Mike DeVries and Tim Liddy, who also fit in the "Dye tree". Tim works directly with Pete. Mike worked with Doak, who's a "Dye tree" guy.

But, hey, I need to complete my first solo effort before being place in that tree.

What work of others has influenced me thus far?

Bill Coore and co. Big time. I think Friar's Head, in particular, is genius. And, speaking of Coore and co., Dave Axland has been a big influence on me. Dave's brilliant. And I've been fortunate to work with him, and become his friend. We've talked quite a bit about golf architecture over the past few years. I'm thankful for my friendship with Dave, who's one of the most sincere "teachers" I've met in the business.

Bill and Dave are "Dye tree" guys too... two more of many!

[ed_getka]

Thanks for the reponses guys. That is great info and I appreciate you guys being involved with this site and adding to my enjoyment of golf course architecture.

[Dave Maberry]

Wouldn't Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" provide some branches for this topic? He lists:
The National School of Design - Macdonald, Raynor, Banks, Emmet
The Philadelphia School of Design - Crump, Wilson, Tillinghast, Thomas, Bell, Flynn
The Ross School of Design - Ross
The MacKenzie School of Design - Hunter, Hollins, Jones(Bobby), MacKenzie, Behr
The Monterrey School of Design - Morse, Neville, Grant, Egan
Other Schools - Maxwell, Langford, Strong, Thompson
Additionally there is a "Golden Age of Golf Design Family Tree" which ties all of these individuals to Old Tom Morris

Dave

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