Bland Canadian Golf Courses

[ed_getka]

Robert,
   Thanks for the response.

Greg,
   How many acres is the site? It looks fairly flat, but photos can fool you, how much movement is there? Has Les determined a routing? What is his vision for the course that received such enthusiastic support? Thanks for providing the link.

[Greg Beaulieu]

  How many acres is the site? It looks fairly flat, but photos can fool you, how much movement is there? Has Les determined a routing? What is his vision for the course that received such enthusiastic support? Thanks for providing the link.

It is part of an approx. 440 acre parcel. The routing plan I saw did not appear crowded and from the tips gave a course of just about 7000 yards. I have not been on the site, but the general terrain in the area moves slightly uphill from south to north. This link, if it works, gives an aerial photo of the lake (in the lower left corner, frozen in this shot) and the site:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.732552,-63.598480&spn=0.042143,0.061626&z=3&t=k&hl=en

The proposed course wraps around the south and east sides of the lake. The land there seems to be mostly hardwoods with some evergreens scattered about. Right now there is some clearing going on at another site nearby (one actually that was originally proposed for this project) and looking at it today revealed it to be gently rolling land with some hardwoods that made me instantly think, "What a great site for a golf course!". But it is going to be a Wal-Mart.

There is also a link to a newsletter that contains more info on the proposal along with a quote from Furber:

http://www.brightwood.ns.ca/newsoct.htm

You have to go thru all 4 pages to get the full picture.

[ed_getka]

Greg,
  Thanks for the feedback.

[Robert Thompson]

Greg: I bet you'll be wowed by the mediocrity of what you're getting. Sounds like your club looked to the same old regulars. At least they'll get what they expected -- but I wouldn't hold my breath for a great course.

[David Sneddon]

Robert:

What is your opinion of Thomas MacBroom??

We have two of his courses locally, Pointe West, faux-links style  whose mounding looks way out of place,   Also a new course IIRC, "Confederation", near the raceway.

[Robert Thompson]

Dave: I like several of Tom's courses -- though I think he has yet to do anything truly great. Rocky Crest, Wildfire and Glencairn are all pretty strong, though Glencairn does have some weak bits. I also liked Lake Joseph Club, though many find the blind shots jarring.

He's tempered his greens and made his courses more user friendly in recent years -- love to see him kick it up a notch.

[Chris Perry]

Ian,

I was going by you stating "not worth the trip", which I think Greywolf is even with it's remote location. That doesn't really have anything to do with being top 100 in the world.

I haven't been privvy to playing any of the courses in your "great" list,  so I'm blind on that count, but I wonder how much more they have to offer as far as "great holes" are concerned. Having played a lot of rugged public courses in BC and Washington, and a few of the private clubs in Vancouver,  I find one constant in that the rugged courses usually have more character than the private clubs because of their topography (the exception being Capilano of course) and that's a big thing for me, and probably why I like Greywolf so much. The other is scenery, which is far more abundant at say, a course like The Harvest Club, one of my favorites in Kelowna, than just about any private club that features bowling alleys lined with tall trees.

I'm curious as to what makes Royal Montreal and the National "dull or average" compared to St. Georges and Hamilton?

I did have the pleasure of playing the Monterey courses last year, and while Pebble and Spyglass are fantastic, I can honestly say for the money that taking a trip down the Kootenay trail and playing Golden, Eagle Ranch, Greywolf, Bootleg Gap and Copper Point for about the same price as Pebble Beach alone... well you get my drift.

For your breakdown on Greywolf, I'd have to say I'd put holes 3, 4 ,5, 8, 13, 14 and 17 in the "great" category, and 9 is better than average, but I'd concur with hole 12 which is probably the weakest hole on the property.

Thanks for bringing up Dakota Dunes, I knew I'd seen that "Sand Hills" project thet they were doing in Sask before, but I couldn't remember it.

[Sean_A]

Ben

I have never been to Chicago or Toronto for golf.  However, I do find it difficult to believe that Toronto kills Detroit for top 15 courses.  In Detroit there is:

Oakland Hills South, a great course that is unduly maligned on this site (the North course is good too)
CC of Detroit
Detroit GC, under-rated in my opinion.
Franklin Hills
Indianwood Old (the New course is very good as well)
Sheperd's Hollow, many good holes, perhaps the cart deal holds it back some
Radrick Farms (in Ann Arbor, better than most people think)
U of M (in Ann Arbor, under-apperciated, but excellent course)

There are others I have not played, but get very high marks from some:

Plum Hollow, R&S Sharf, TPC at Dearborn (walked it many times) are a few of them.  

I also think courses such as Grosse Ile, Washtenaw CC (in Ypsilanti), Travis Point (in Ann Arbor) are good.  

I have not lived in Detroit for 7 years now.  I am sure a few more worthy courses have opened.

Detroit has a lot of courses, many more than some people realize.  In fact, Michigan is one of the better states to play golf in.  Very difficult to beat for quality, variety and price.  

What is this list of Toronto courses that kills Detroit?

Ciao

Sean

[David Sneddon]

Dave: I like several of Tom's courses -- though I think he has yet to do anything truly great. Rocky Crest, Wildfire and Glencairn are all pretty strong, though Glencairn does have some weak bits. I also liked Lake Joseph Club, though many find the blind shots jarring.

He's tempered his greens and made his courses more user friendly in recent years -- love to see him kick it up a notch.

Thanks for the comments, Robert.

The local scuttlebut on the new course was that after Tom had the routing and finished design, the developer took away an addtiitonal 20acres fro more housing.  Word has it he wasn't terribly exicted at the news.  Jeff Mingay probably knows more of the story.

They seeded the course last year, but with all the rain  the seed was washed away - so they sodded the entire course!!  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ben
What is this list of Toronto courses that kills Detroit?

Sean,
I have not seen all of your list, but here is a Toronto list
St. Georges
Hamilton
Toronto GC
National
Devil's Paintbrush
Eagle's Nest
Scarboro
Weston
Osprey Valley
Rosedale
Summit
Glen Abbey
Mississaugua
Beacon Hall
Thornhill

I am not including Brantford, which is the same as including UofM in your list.

Others I did not list, Magna, Heron Point, Osprey Valley's other two courses...

Sean,
As I said, I have not played all of the Detroit courses you mentioned, but I stand by what I said. I think Toronto stacks up with just about any city, struggling against London and Greater NYC.

[Adam_F_Collins]

Robert, I know nothing of Furber's work other than what I read here, and given the mixed reviews I was surprised and disappointed when our course committee recommended him. He must have wowed them though, because their recommendation was both unanimous and enthusiastic. Too bad Rod Whitman didn't get an invitaation to present to them.

Greg,

I didn't join Brightwood until last year - and although I tried, no one would let me take part in the course committee because it was already set up by the time I joined. (And I asked several people more than once).

I'm on leave this season because of my university work. I haven't seen Les's routing, but when I heard the excited news from another member that "there's even an island green!" - I was pretty disappointed. Frankly, in this age of information availability, I don't know how so many people who are so in love with golf could be so clueless about what makes a golf course fun.

I'm afraid we're going to trade in an old course with a lot of character for a new course with "fair lies" and "signature holes" without an ounce of distinction. Everyone will love it. It's depressing. Ton's of money; "championship" course; another faceless Canadian golf course, known only to locals and Score Golf. I hope not - but I wouldn't bet against it.

I am glad we didn't get Graham Cooke though. Christ, if I see his name on ONE MORE course out here!! You'd swear he was the only one in the world.

Island GREEN!?!? Come ON!!

[Sean_A]

Ben

I can agree that Toronto stacks up with most cities.  Looking at your list, I can't see how Toronto kills Detroit.  Oakland Hills alone is one of the 50 or so premier clubs in the world.  

U of M is only one hour door to door from the downtown Detroit.  It is nearly as far to head for Franklin Hills.

Ciao

Sean

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Sean,
I know numerous folks who comment that St. Georges is better than Oakland Hills, and the middle and bottom of Toronto's lineup is strong.

I just made the drive from Detroit to Ann Arbor a couple of weeks ago. Brantford is just one-hour from my door, which is why I made the reference.

[Sean_A]

Ben

I look forward to the day that I can play St. Georges, Hamilton and Mississaugua, especially if they serve practically any Molson in the bar.  The golf in Canada can at best be #3 behind hockey and lager.  Call golf #4, Neil Young certainly rates top 3!

Ciao

Sean

[Jeff_Mingay]

I live near Detroit, and not far from Toronto. I've experienced the best courses in and around both cities. Toronto wins, pretty easy, I think.  

St. George's is much better than Oakland Hills in my opinion. And, Detroit's list gets weak after the first few courses at the top. As Ben says, Toronto stays strong through the middle and is much, much stronger at the bottom.  

[Bryan Izatt]

Ian,

Well, I like the North, Parkland course at Osprey too, although it generally seems to rank behind the other too.  I particularly think the par 3 11th is one of the finer one shotters in this or any other neighbourhood.

Given your feelings about the last three on the South course, it's too bad you couldn't transplant the last three from the North course - the best stertch on that course, I think.

My only negative thought about the two new courses from an architecture point of view is why they were designed with such generous driving areas on most holes.  Was that the owner's requirement?

I suppose they may rank higher if enough raters return to the two new courses.  There is now a pretty nice rustic clubhouse, and a nice wandering drive in on a gravel road through the south course, and the conditioning is pretty good.  A nice practice facility too.

I'm surprised by your lack of enthusiasm for 16-18 on the South course.  I presume you're not a fan of the waterfall on 17 (although it looks reasonably natural to me).  Sixteen and eighteen seem like pretty good holes to me.  Sixteen having some good length to a pinched fairway in the landing area, water all along the right side, a long second to a well bunkered green, although the green contours are pretty mundane.  Eighteen requires a draw off the tee, and a fade to the green with two ponds to tell you where not to go, and a green that's fairly interesting to putt.  What's not to like about that?

BTW I notice they continue to work on the South course, mostly adding yet more waste areas on 5 and 16 around the greens, and on 16 below the tee.  Are you guys involved in that or are they doing it on their own.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ben, Jeff,

Nice to see some promotion and defence of Canadian/GTA courses - better than some of the other negative commentary on here.

Could you add to the list others like National Pines, Lionhead Legends, and Angus Glen South, or are they a cut below the others you've mentioned.  They still seem pretty strong to me compared to many American courses I've played.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Bryan,
I do not like Lionhead, but Angus South could vie for one of those spots. National Pines is far enough away to be in the Brantford category.

That was a quick list off the top of my head, though I am sure we could go another ten deep with Islington, Lambton, Maple Downs, etc.

[Bryan Izatt]

A pretty rich golf environment, eh.

Too bad the season is only seven months.

[Robert Thompson]

Bryan: Just so we're clear -- I'm a big fan of a lot of Canadian golf, I just think some of the newer public tracks are a bit of a let down.
That said, I think Toronto Golf/St.G/Banff/Jasper/Highlands and the likes of Eagles Nest and Blackhawk stand up pretty well.

Given this thread, I think it is time for another gathering of the Toronto chapter of GCA.

[Allan Hutton]

This thread seems like the perfect forum to jump into the fray with my first post.  I am a Fife/Lothian golfer residing in Toronto.  

I have been extremely impressed with the quality and depth of golf courses in the GTA.  The top courses are superb, but I am very impressed with the second tier courses, i.e. those that come in just below the top 15.

With regards to the courses mentioned in this thread, why does the Devils Pulpit not elicit any pseudo votes?  Is this course architecturally challenged, or does the Devils Paintbrush overshadow its elder sibling?

[Sean_A]

Robert

I think you are right.  If you have guys on here believing Toronto is superior to Detroit for golf, I would like to go up there and play.  Which courses are easy to get on?

Ciao

Sean

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Rob is right, we had six out for the brunch in February, it looks like a lot more have emerged.

Allan,
I much prefer the Paintbrush, because it is far more unique in the market. The Pulpit is good, but it does not differentiate itself like the Paintbrush, which I believe is the definition of fun golf.

[Bryan Izatt]

Robert,

I kind of knew you were a big fan.  And the top 100 in the world is pretty elite company.  I just wanted to celebrate what Canadian golf has to offer.  Our "average" course are better than many.

We'll have to have a go on Eagles Nest sometime, perhaps at the Toronto chapter.  Isn't it hard to rank it in the top 10 in Canada with it only being in play for a year, and not fully grown in yet.  I think it will be wonderful, but, already?  Sort of like Bandon Trails - great before its time.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

Of the list above Eagles Nest, Osprey Valley (3 courses), Glen Abbey, and Angus Glen are public access courses.  The rest are private - you'll need to know someone or try to get recipricol playing privileges.