[Pat_Mucci]

At one point in time the most important views of a golf course were those from within the golf course, from the golfers eye, within the fields of play.

With the advent of residential golf communities, did the perspective change, whereby the most important views of the golf course were from beyond the golf course or at the perimeter of the fields of play ?

Did TV act as a catalyst, further emphazing views of a golf course from other than the golfer's eye ?

Could this explain the movement to hyper visibility ?

[PThomas]

Pat-- no one hates intrusive housing more than I -- see past rants about Troon -...but with so many/most? new courses being built in conjunction with real estate I'm not sure hot to get away from the situation

[Willie_Dow]

Pat

My concern is that the dominant factor in the construction of residential golf communities is the sale of real estate, not the design of the layout.

Once that is the factor, the observation by critics of golf - like the Ron Whitten article describes for "the rest of us in golf" - it diminishes golf for the sake of playing the game as it lies.

I think your observation of looking in, rather than looking out is a good one !

Willie

[Pat_Mucci]

Willie,

A house is a house.

What differentiates it from thousands of others are the views, hence the emphasis on views.

In addition, most people want a house with water and/or golf course views, and a good golf course.

With so much product on the market, developers must seperate or differentiate their product from the others, hence strong visual signals-views have become paramount, rather then the views from within the golf course.

Golfweek's Rater's notebook lists "Natural setting and land plan" amongst its categories, and that's where the conflict exists, for if you block out the golfers views of the surrounding homes, you also block out the homeowner's views of the golf course.

And, because the majority of the money is in the real estate end, the homeowners win and the golfers lose, even though they may be the same people.

[Mike_Cirba]

The link below (if someone knows how to display it, please do so) is to what is supposedly the first "planned community" in the United States, at Brigantine, NJ (a barrier island off Atlantic City).

Here, Stiles and Van Kleek built Brigantine CC, which is a "residential community" course that doesn't really feel like one when you're out there (except for the frequent street crossings).  

I think there are some tricks employed here that modern architects could utilize, but to me it seems that it all comes down to having wide enough corridors for golf.  

Thoughts anyone?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Brigantine,+NJ&ll=39.416687,-74.369390&spn=0.018797,0.027895&t=k&hl=en

[Tom_Doak]

Pat,

I've never been asked to consider the views from the lots directly while building a golf hole on a residential project.

However, during the routing process, this is certainly an issue.  Homes looking uphill toward golf are not nearly as valuable as those looking downhill, so residential courses tend to be routed through valleys as much as possible, at the expense of variety.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

If you are talking about hypervisibility of golf features from the landing area, I doubt it.  My reading of Ross, et al from the Golden Age books is that they realized that good players could plan better if the target was visible.

As to TV affecting the different viewpoints, I really think it was marketing photos that changed styles, adding to the wow factor that the golfer may not necessarily need to see.

Housing does affect design, and exterior views are important to the overall design.  I have an otherwise sold out real estate course, with one unsold lot - right behind the support mounding of a fw bunker and with no view.  They seemingly can't sell it as a golf course lot.  On my new Kansas course, I am only building flanking mounds where I can leave a view corridor from the lots somewhere.

So, the good news is, fairway flanking mounds are out as a design style precisely because they block housing views.  The bad news is, views of the houses are a result.

[Andrew Summerell]

I've used this quote elsewhere. Thought it would be suitable.

George C. Thomas wrote in his book 'Golf Architecture in America':
"Beware of the man with land to sell who wishes you to build a golf course so that you can sell the land for him. Too often such a proposition brings conflicting interests into being and the course may suffer."


Andrew

[Pat_Mucci]

Jeff & Andrew,

Having views of water has always been desirable for homeowners, unless the views are IN your living room.
Water views are almost always premier lots.

Subtle views aren't as well received as views that "WOW" you.

I have to wonder, if in their attempts to "WOW" you, the golf course features weren't emphasized or exagerated, and if this process didn't diminish the subtleties of the golf course.

When you factor in the two dimensional nature of TV and its inability to see nuances or subtleties, you have to ask again, is TV responsible for the emphasis and exageration of features ?

And, have the two combined or conspired to alter views of what's in the golf course from off the golf course.

Fountains that shoot jets of water 50 feet into the air and waterfalls that are not in play can't be for the golfers benefit, can they ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Let me axe you sumtin.

Do you think it's important to discuss who's to BLAME for everything?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I see your points.  I do think TV is to blame in a way, but not TV golf. Generally, I think it has made society more visual (Your Wow factor) and less attuned to subtelies in general. Perhaps it also got us accustomed to having everything wrapped up in one nice package we could understand at the end of a specified time period.

Unlike Tom, I have been asked to consider outside views, not only in avoiding fw flanking mounds, but finding ways to arrange bunkers, consistent generally with good golf, that also face the housing lots to achieve that wow factor.

Thats not all bad.  It seemingly leads to more Cape style fw bunkers, that angle out and face the tee and houses (imagine houses left of the 5th at Mid Ocean, and sand along the lower edge of the fw, for instance)  I also designed other neat holes where the bunker pattern is in view of the houses, that I wouldn't have otherwise designed, had that not been part of the thought process......

Of course, its not hard to imagine it could work the other way, too.

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