If a Tree Dies on a MacKenzie Course, Is A Bunker There to Replace It?

[DMoriarty]

If one looks through Geoff Shackelford's excellent book on Cypress Point, one can see that there are a substantial number of bunkers located directly behind trees, and that many of these trees serve some strategic purpose.  

If I recall correctly from his writings, MacKenzie's is no fan of strategic trees.  Perhaps MacKenzie was preparing for the trees' demise by placing bunkers near them-- when the tree died, the bunker could fill the strategic gap.  
 
Anyone else think this may have been the case?  

If it was the case, then why not cut the trees down in the first place?  Pressure from members or others involved?

What do you suppose MacKenzie would think of some of the tree planting that is going on at Cypress now (presumably to replace dying trees)?

[George Pazin]

I have to go home and check my book, but could this maybe be a case of a telephoto lens foreshortening the distance, so that maybe the tree isn't as close to the bunker as it appears. I can't imagine Mac putting a bunker right behind a tree.

[Bill_McBride]

Those trees up by #10 green near #11 front tee were awful!    What were they thinking?

[DMoriarty]

I have to go home and check my book, but could this maybe be a case of a telephoto lens foreshortening the distance, so that maybe the tree isn't as close to the bunker as it appears. I can't imagine Mac putting a bunker right behind a tree.

Take a look at Nos. 1 (bunker behind lft. tree), 5 (bunker behind tree at left. corner),  14 (bunker partially behind rt. tree), 17! (bunkers all around center trees), and 18! (bunkers behind tree lft center, behind tree short rt., behind trees at rt. corner, behind tree left, partiallybehind tree lft at corner, and bunker running up to the right through the forest.)

The ariels confirm most of these, except where the trees foilage and shadow hides the bunker  

[ForkaB]

The bunkers must have died on 17........

[T_MacWood]

David
I think you might be on to something....I noticed a number of bunkers with trees in the old photos on the Pasatiempo website.

[JESII]

I've not played CPC or Pasatiempo, or any other MacKenzie course to my knowledge, so I cannot comment about these specific examples but I disagree with the premise.

What is the purpose of fairway bunkers?
-suggest a line of play off the tee-
-create an obstacle for the player to avoid-
-penalize a misplayed shot at that distance-
All of these (and probably many others) help to shape the strategy a player will employ as he approaches the hole. A tree does the same things, but in a much different way. The tree is an aerial obstacle whereas the bunker is a ground obstacle, and thus needs to be placed in a different position, along the hole, than the bunker.

If MacKenzie placed bunkers under or behind trees I would bet the bunker better represented the purpose of the obstacle he intended, and was hoping to have the tree removed because it had lost its relevence.
 

[DMoriarty]

Bill,

Yes those trees are another issue.   I might start a thread on them with a few picks.  
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The bunkers must have died on 17........

Many of the bunkers mentioned are no longer with us.  The trees (or their replacements?) have survived.  

Tom MacWood,

I dont recall those photos but I'd be interested to review early photos to more of his courses to see if there is a pattern.   Of course it could have been a one time thing, a plan to eventually get around a membership/proprietor who did not want to get rid of certain trees.   Or I could be wrong.
_____________________

JES II,  not so sure your premise is that different.   Whether he was hoping to remove the trees later or waiting for their death, it seems the premise is the same.  

[DMoriarty]

Well I just looked at my Spirit of St. Andrews and I am flat out wrong about MacKenzie's thoughts on trees.   He thinks groups of trees have their place, especially in parkland courses, when they exist in small groupings/ groves so that they maintain a natural appearance.  

So now I am really perplexed.  Why all the bunkers behind the trees?   Maybe more blending?   Or maybe he didnt mind the tree but thought it unlikely that they could be replaced when they died?  Anyone?  

[Jim Bearden]

The most famous tree at CPC was on # 6 with a branch stretching across the fairway approximately 50 to 60 feet above the fairway and unless you pitched over which was pointless the only shot was a low screamer. Unfortunately the tree collapsed in '96 or '97 (it turned out that it was hollow due to rot or insects). The loss of this tree forever changed the character of the hole and if you put a thousand bunkers all over it would never make up for the loss of the tree.

This discussion could be combined with the bunkering post on CPC and then go to historic photos and then figure A M's intent for the design. Interesting questions but difficult answers because everybody has differing opinions.

[DMoriarty]

The most famous tree at CPC was on # 6 with a branch stretching across the fairway approximately 50 to 60 feet above the fairway and unless you pitched over which was pointless the only shot was a low screamer. Unfortunately the tree collapsed in '96 or '97 (it turned out that it was hollow due to rot or insects). The loss of this tree forever changed the character of the hole and if you put a thousand bunkers all over it would never make up for the loss of the tree.

I think I may know the exactly where you mean and was considering starting a thread about the old tree and its replacements  . . .  



I thought the tree to the left of the small tree was transplanted to replace the tree you remember.   But now they've planted a smaller tree as well.   I'd love to see a photo showing the location of the old tree.  

As for the smaller one, frankly I like the looks of the hole much better without the tree.  Also I would never consider this an easy approach or ideal angle without the small tree.  

MacKenzie himself was quite fond of the trees to the left on No. 6.  In Spirit of St. Andrews he fondly recounts how Cyril Tolley (apparently a long hitter for his time) badly pulled a drive and was stymied by a group of trees between him and the green.  Instead of playing safely back to the fairway, he tried to carry them and ended up with a high score.

A doctored version of the photo above, without the small tree.

[T_MacWood]

Here is the link to the historic pictures at Pasatiempo (10, 14 and 16):

http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/golfinfo_slideshows.php

[JESII]

DMoriarty

Good point about the eventual demise of the tree, it really is irrelevant as to the cause if the bunker is there for either instance. So I would say he felt the tree was the wrong feature at that particular point of the proceedings, and a bunker was a better fit. Why the tree still stood is a mystery to me.

I do submit the argument that trees are a significantly different obstacle than a bunker because of its effect on balls in the air. For example, a tree does not even closely replicate the options offered by a fairway bunker because laying up short of it is not an option at all.

[Jim Bearden]

The most famous tree at CPC was on # 6 with a branch stretching across the fairway approximately 50 to 60 feet above the fairway and unless you pitched over which was pointless the only shot was a low screamer. Unfortunately the tree collapsed in '96 or '97 (it turned out that it was hollow due to rot or insects). The loss of this tree forever changed the character of the hole and if you put a thousand bunkers all over it would never make up for the loss of the tree.

I think I may know the exactly where you mean and was considering starting a thread about the old tree and its replacements  . . .  



I thought the tree to the left of the small tree was transplanted to replace the tree you remember.   But now they've planted a smaller tree as well.   I'd love to see a photo showing the location of the old tree.  

As for the smaller one, frankly I like the looks of the hole much better without the tree.  Also I would never consider this an easy approach or ideal angle without the small tree.  

MacKenzie himself was quite fond of the trees to the left on No. 6.  In Spirit of St. Andrews he fondly recounts how Cyril Tolley (apparently a long hitter for his time) badly pulled a drive and was stymied by a group of trees between him and the green.  Instead of playing safely back to the fairway, he tried to carry them and ended up with a high score.

A doctored version of the photo above, without the small tree.

It was on the right hand side and was approximatly ate the end of the closest bunker so there was no relationship with the bunker. The tree was a freak of nature and could not be reproduced unless worked on by an agronimist over about 70 to 100 years. Iwill see if I can find a picture or if Bob Huntley can get one over at CPC or has one.