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Chris Perry

Tournament Idea
« on: April 19, 2005, 01:53:23 PM »
I'm sure someone else has thought of this before, but after watching some old Shell's WWOG matches, it made me think it would be cool to see todays pro's play ONE set tournament a year on a "shorter" course like Pine Vallley or Merion, using older equipment. Titleist blades circa 1970-80, small headed persimmons with steel shafts, no graphite, blade putters and most importantly, a standardized ball that is just above gutta percha.

It'd be interesting to see if these guys can still score like Jack used to without technology on their side. That and it would just be different than what we see all year round.

THuckaby2

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2005, 01:57:10 PM »
Chris:  that would be great for us fans, without a doubt... but do you really think the pros would do that?

The first issue is equipment contracts.. so assume you can get waivers for that... why would they want to set themselves up to look bad?

Oh man, I would love to see such an event... but I just don't see pros having any incentive to do it, nor do I see them as even close to that fun-loving or magnanimous.

TH

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2005, 02:00:24 PM »
Would you also prepare the course as it was in 1970?

I am a proponent of the older equipment, and would enjoy seeing the best of today play with it in a competitive situation, but my support ceases when it gets to greens rolling below 10 feet. Any thoughts?

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2005, 02:04:53 PM »
Within the last year or so, I believe one of the golf magazines did a story in which Luke Donald played with old equipment and they compared the results.  If I remember correctly, I don't think he had too much difficulty with the older stuff.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2005, 02:10:53 PM »
One must not assume that today's professionals would look foolish or play poorly using yesterday's equipment. Be assured that with properly fitted equipment and a few days of practice, they would do just fine. Remember, these guys are good!
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 02:11:06 PM »
I love the idea, but I am afraid Huck is right. I doubt the pros would want to look bad with older equipment.

One tournament I would like to see (modern equipment or not)  -- let them play for their own $$$ in the annual skins game and see how many warm, fuzzy moments you get outta them!!   :D

Jason Tetterton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 02:12:39 PM »
Is Tiger Woods the only "Big" name not to have played in a Shell match?  If so, do you think he will play at some time in the future?  Or, do you think these Battles under the lights at Sherwood will be all we get?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 02:39:54 PM »
I like the idea, but the only chance we have of ever seeing it, is if it is called The MASTERS....because only they have the clout to make it happen.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 02:46:54 PM »
haven't they stopped doing Shell matches?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 02:54:57 PM »
I'd be interested to see what "older" equipment was used in that comparison. From a playability perspective, I think the adjustment to 1970 clubs would be pretty brief, only entailing gauging actual distances due to loft and ball differences. Luke Donald presently uses forged blade irons, with steel shafts, so there would be virtually no adjustment necessary as far as playing style. My guess is that he would be shorter but more accurate with the Persimmon driver. The distance differential should be greater than the accuracy differential, thereby making the old clubs slightly less effective. But surprisingly little IMO, at the right place.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 03:18:16 PM »
What makes you think they would look bad?
The ball would be shorter,with the fairways just as wide,so they'd be easier to hit(not driving into narrows,and a ball hit 280 is easier to hit a 40 yard target than a ball hit 310)
Instead of hitting irons and hybrids,they'd hit more drivers and 3 woods.

Evidently I'm the only guy who can't hit it straighter with the modern equipment-I find low spin high launch harder to control,but I've never been a great driver anyway.

How many of you played in the 70's and early 80's.
Was it that hard?those clubs had sweet spots too.
The short game's the same-It would take about 1 day to adjust to no lob wedge(I don't even use one)
I played over the Holidays with my old Wilson staffs from 1973.They felt great,but the lofts were weaker so I hit an extra club(which really wasn't an extra club)

Why can we accept runners going faster,basketball players jumping higher,(can't use baseball analogy I guess)
but no one can admit golfers are better.
Jack was a multisport athlete,but most others in his day played golf because their options were limited in other sports.
Look at the bodies and athletic resumes of college golfers today.
10 guys every week would shoot better than Jack-but then someone would say it was due to conditioning.....
Of course all of this is an arguement for such a tournament and action by the USGA.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

THuckaby2

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 03:21:14 PM »
I guess I shouldn't have said they would look "bad".

Their shots would certainly look worse than what we normally see from them.  They would be shorter and more crooked.  Oh, I have no doubt any pro could kick my butt using hickories against my modern clubs - these guys are good, without a doubt.

But would they allow the world to see them look lesser in competition?

Make it no TV, at someone's home club, just for fun, and I'm sure there are plenty who would love to give it a try.

But that's not what we're talking about here, is it?

TH

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2005, 03:27:19 PM »
TH

What makes you think they would be more crooked?

THuckaby2

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2005, 03:29:57 PM »
JES:

Maybe they wouldn't be more crooked.  They would definitely be shorter.  And you have to admit for a lot of these guys, it's been a LONG time since they've played eqipment with such little margin for error.  Give them some time to adjust and heck yeah, they could hit it just as straight.  But it would take some practice time... how many would want to devote the time necessary to get up to speed, for just this one event?

I just don't see this as being worth doing for the pros... as much fun as it would be to see.

TH

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2005, 03:36:31 PM »
No question about the shorter part, actually it would be interesting to see how long it would take them to really, instinctively know how far they were going to hit it. Considering how vastly different it would be, I suspect that would be a real challenge as well.

No, I don't see the pros doing this anytime soon unless someone ponied up a big pile of cash, these guys seem to do alot for guaranteed money. I'll put $100 in the pot to get it started, think that'll draw anyone?

p.s. I put my money on the same guys that are winning right now.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2005, 03:39:29 PM »
I think the pros would perform very well using the older clubs, but what would really shine would be the older courses themselves. Strategic elements that the modern player blows right over the top of would be back in play. With the courses prepared properly, as they were back in the day (see the interview on this site with Linc Roden) and with the golfers armed with appropriate equipment, we'd be seeing shots rarely seen in tournament play any more, with the ability to shape a shot once again becoming paramount. Golf courses wouldn't have to trick themselves up with knee-high rough and concrete-hard greens to "protect par." That would be GREAT.

It'll never happen.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Alex Chehansky

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2005, 08:20:28 PM »
i am currently working with the golf channel and several others in trying to put a match together like this in a "made for tv" form.  the only problem we are running into is a title sponsor to pay for it!!!!  It will happen on a "classic" course, with old equipment and two or four players in the top 75 today...IF we can get a title sponsor to pay.....

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2005, 09:05:30 PM »
Here is the article from Golfonline:

Sure, your equipment is better than the stuff that was in your dad's golf bag but how much better? We put GOLF MAGAZINE Contributing Player Luke Donald on the case, turning him loose at Desert Forest Golf Club in Carefree, Arizona, armed with 45-year-old clubs: MacGregor's Eye-O-Matic 60 driver and Tourney Velocitized fairway woods, Wilson Staff Dyna-Powered irons and sand wedge, a Ben Hogan Equalizer pitching wedge, a Bulls Eye putter, and an original Ping 1-A putter. He used two types of Titleist balls his current model, the Pro V1x, and a new sleeve of Tour 90 balatas from a decade ago, the softest ball we could find that we were sure wouldn't implode. For comparison's sake, he also hit shots with his current clubs, including a 365cc titanium-headed driver with a graphite shaft.
Here is Donald's report:

 Luke Donald tees it up "old-school." Bruce Racine
 



Though the heads are much smaller than what I'm used to, these woods are real good-looking, especially considering they're decades older than I am. The sweetspot may be tiny, but you can tell these clubs have great balance; everything's in proportion. Today's drivers are more head-heavy.

Well, here goes nothing....

There's a big difference in the sound and feel at impact. The persimmon feels dead, like I'm hitting a grapefruit. It's a struggle to get the ball into the air with the driver. The balata ball has a low, flat trajectory that dives quickly at the end. (My Pro V1x proves easier to get airborne, but only just.) On the 1st hole, I make a decent swing at least the contact feels fine. But when I look up the ball is knee-high. Almost gives the photographer a haircut.

My current driver sends it 50 yards past the old MacGregor with modern balls, 20-35 yards with the balata. I don't see as much difference in the fairway woods. At the 7th hole, a par 5, I have 245 yards left. With the 3-wood I hit a balata straight and get it to the green, but my second attempt, with a Pro V1x, takes off just as straight but much higher and stays in the air a lot longer. The difference between the old and new balls is amazing. Jack Nicklaus always says the modern ball is the biggest reason for the length we get these days. Now I have to agree.

The '59 Wilson irons are comparable to my Mizuno MP-33s. The hosel on the old ones is thicker and the blade shorter, but the shape, offset and topline are similar. I notice the Wilson 4-iron has more loft than my Mizuno 4-iron, and the shaft is about an inch and a half shorter. Not surprisingly, my current set plays about a club longer throughout the bag. The old pitching and sand wedges perform like I'm used to wedge design has stayed pretty classical. But on shorter shots the balata ball produces a different feeling, like it wants to stick to the clubface. I thought I might tear the cover off the ball. You'd think the balata would be much easier to control, but the Pro V1x spins almost as much.

Putting is easy with the old Bulls Eye there's a reason this model lives on. The Ping takes some getting used to. Never mind the high-pitched ping; it's so light and the metal so thin that judging distance takes some time.So what did I learn? Modern technology has definitely made the game easier. I've gained a new measure of respect for the old-timers, who couldn't just crush the ball; they had to be true shotmakers.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2005, 10:38:39 PM »
Corey Pavin would not be the only one who works almost every shot!   Modern equipment has made working the ball almost a dead art.  I was watching the playoff at the Isleworth/Lake Nona match.  Lee Janzen was the only one who tried to cut a tee shot off the 18th tee, the first few tee balls were hooked into the left rough after attempts to cut the dogleg right.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2005, 10:49:00 PM »
We were proposing to play a 'heritage' or 'tradition' or 'classic' comp amongst a few friends soon, similar to this threads idea.  What are the essential elements for such equipment?  We'll leave out clothes and shoes.

Must all shafts be steel, or are other materials allowed (obviously hickory is permitted)?

Are only wooden woods allowed, or are steel heads permitted?

Are there any irons restrictions (apart from perhaps banning high launch long irons)?

Are hybrid/rescue clubs allowed (probably not)?

Are lob wedges allowed (probably not)?

What sort of ball can be used (are there any 'classics' available)?

What height of tee is allowed (old wooden tees perhaps)?

I expect there are a few definitions of 'classic' out there.  The rules are aimed at getting our old woods and perhaps not-to advanced technology current irons out for an old-style game.  What sort of modern ball should we use with persimmon woods?

Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Chris Perry

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2005, 03:11:20 PM »
I'm sure the pro's could still SCORE well with the older equipment, but the basis of the thought was that it would be interesting to see them play a course that isn't 7200 yards without turning it into a pitch and putt, and to see them playing 3 woods instead of 6 irons into par 5's and what kind of shotmaking skills they could show given those circumstances. It would make them a tad more human like the weekend warriors we are, than the machines we see week after week.

Thanks for the article Greg.  

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2005, 03:33:06 PM »
I do agree that these Guys could still shoot low even with the old equipment. The sweet spot maybe much smaller but they'll find it most of the time.

Last year I was playing a Surrey Heathland track and whilst searching for my usual scag in the trees, I came across an old Dunlop 65 preserved in the acid peat and almost as good as new. I estimate it was circa 1972 due to the recognisable font and the fact that it was clearly the 1.62 inch version. So I thought I'd give it a go with a three wood and was stunned. That sucker went off like a bullet.

Nate Mady

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2005, 03:36:40 PM »
I'd just like to see them play PV, I don't think they'd score all that well using their PROV1 and 460cc driver.. Look at Harbour Town, shortest course on tour, ate them for lunch!!

Chris Perry

Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2005, 07:49:16 PM »
It would also be neat to see if these guys are as good as Jack was in his prime when he was using that equipment. That's what's most intriguing to me.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tournament Idea
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2005, 12:08:38 PM »
somebody said those balls Jack used to use were the "worse pieces of S***" ever...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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