[TEPaul]

Rich:

Let's just say I don't buy any of your egalitarian rationale on any of those points about the golf clubs you mentioned in Europe. If those club members could pay the same amount they do now without letting in the amount of outside play they do now do you really think they'd do it anyway? You can continue to tell me you think they would but for some odd reasons those who belong to (and run) those clubs say otherwise. If they're so egalitarian one wonders why they would've said that. Of course you can continue to say they were just joking like you tried to in the past but I can pretty much guarantee you they didn't look like or sound like they were joking because they weren't.

(BTW, as perhaps a quid pro quo for their "confession" (if one wants to call it that) they all wanted to know from both me and the other fellow I was with (who knows a thing or two) about what they referred to as "that woman" in America!    

[ForkaB]

Thanks for not answering my questions, Tom!  You are getting more and more "Behrish" as you age..........

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thanks for so much information - fascinating.  

One of the reasons we have to book starting times at many of our clubs is that the memberships are huge and active - 1000 members at Conwy, my home club, and only 18 holes.  But it is not an affluent membership.  There are a good number of unemployed and ordinary working people.  There is nothing elitist about the wealthier members and they are not going to stand by and watch their less fortunate clubmates be squeezed out of the club by escalating annual dues.  Visitor green fees are a necessary part of this.  There is another reason for Conwy's need for starting times which is that it is a well-drained links which plays well in winter.  Around Manchester many courses are pretty waterlogged in winter (I met a chap in the butcher's yesterday who was moaning that his course was closed because of flooding) and golf on them is purgatorial. An hour's drive down the M56/A55 brings good quality winter golf at ca £30 (or less) at Conwy, North Wales, Maesdu, Prestatyn or a 90 minute drive brings Holyhead, Bull Bay, Pwllheli, Porthmadoc and Nefyn within range.  Additionally, many families have holiday homes or caravans in the area.  A normal Saturday medal will have something like 200 competitors in summer with starting times from 08.00 to 17.00.

Wilmslow, where one of my sons is a member, is a very different establishment.  The membership is 790 but you would be astonished if as many as 100 played in any Saturday competition.  They don't have starting times except for invitationals and the odd big event such as Captain's Day.  They charge a hefty green fee - £50 - and limit the number of societies they accept.  However, they ensure that the society has a good experience with a well-run tournament, good food and drink and friendly staff.  

Thanks again for such detailed responses.

[TEPaul]

"You are getting more and more "Behrish" as you age.......... "

Thank you---I take that as a great compliment. I've always been bullish on Behr!

Ooofff, that's really bad!  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mark,

How about The London area clubs? Are they more
"American" ie, smaller memberships and less outside play?

Rich,

It is a different structure and less frequent, but there is "artisans" play at many courses here on Mondays, along with charity outings for outsiders. I don't have a rater card and I do not belong to a private golf club in The Met (Yale is in the Connecticut State Golf Association, and I mainly play on weekends), and nobody is crying for me! I belong to a "Society" that plays 12 outings a year at Met area private clubs, normally on Tuesday and Thursday's. I realize that this does not help the oveseas visitor, but I think many clubs are more receptive to a letter from Scotland, Ireland .... than a phone call from Vinny in Brooklyn for outside play in the off season, especially the Fall.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Mike.  I did some "artisan" play as a caddy in the Met area in the 60's, and very much appreciated it  Good to know that you can get on private courses as a local society.  Any reason why this privilege could not be extended (as per availability) to overseas "societies" (even an EB White/Dan Kellyish "society of one")?

TEP

Still waiting for your answers.  Are you waiting for Pat Mucci to log on and play ventriloquist for you? Surely not...........

[TEPaul]

Look Rich, if you are looking to get me to admit that I think that American golf clubs and Americans who belong and play at exclusive and elitists clubs in America in a general sense (not always but perhaps too often) suffer from some kind of cultural insecurity whereby money and the perception of wealth and exclusivity somehow defines them, you should know I'd be happy to do that as you can see I have in the past.

The concept of true "noblese oblige" I believe was something conceived of and sublimely developed at one time in the British Isles. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons true noblese oblige began to devolve away in the British Isles over time and in America (with a few exceptions) the devolution of that concept was perfected by those very Americans who were some of the greatest Anglophiles.

That, and a few other uniquely American cultural characteristics worked towards the state of American private golf clubs as we find them today.

It is very ironic, as Tommy Williamsen said earlier on this thread that the British Isles are looked upon by so many as the land of cultural classification while America is looked upon as this land of great democratic egalitarianism.

In the context of golf clubs in both lands the great irony is it's almost exactly the opposite!  

[ForkaB]

Nice stuff, Tom.

You still haven't answered any of my questions.....

Have a nice morning!

[TEPaul]

Or to put it in perhaps simpler terms it's my sense that those who exhibit, or did, true noblese oblige, or even some vestiges of it are those who don't really need others to tell them what they are or to don some of these trappings of what they want the world to think of them. Those people knew precisely who and what they were, they were not in the slightest bit insecure about it and they didn't feel the need to to pretend to be anything to the contrary. The fascinating thing was since they apparently understood precisely how fortunate they were, they for some reason developed a true social responsibility to do something about it which was essentially to treat no one any different than anyone else.

[TEPaul]

What are your questions now? If they're about this "artesian" thing in Europe or potentially in American private clubs, I'm afraid I really don't know what "artesian" means in that context.

I'm sure you know there are various clubs and golf courses in Europe that have mutiple "clubs" or "societies" all using a particular golf course. Such a thing is virtually unheard of in the United States. It's never been that way here even in the very beginning. There're occasional examples of "reciprocity" over here but that's something else altogether.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

On your list of items you left off the loss of all licenses issued by government agencies, such as the club's liquor license, for failure to comply to public policy, which would be unavoidable for a private club.

Most private clubs are also exempt from income taxes.
There are rules in affect today that state that non-reltated business income will be taxed.  But the loss of the club's general tax exemption would create a significant financial burden on the club.

It's akin to being in a submarine, at depth, and having it spring a significant leak.

There are onerous consequences for a private club that's declared a "public facility".

[Bill Gayne]

The potential real tax issue for many of America's oldest private clubs is property tax on the real estate. Income taxes are reflective of and paid from current operations and cash flows.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't think Rich cares about stuff like that. He doesn't want to hear it. He apparently just thinks that US private clubs should simply do whatever it takes over here so they can let all kinds of non-members play their courses as they do in Europe.  

[Paul_Turner]

The famous British have been open to the playing public for decades.  Long before golf tourism and the large amounts of cash it brings.  The financial gain now is certainly a boon to the clubs and I do think some are taking it too far with the green fees.  
But it wasn't set up that way, and Rich's list of priorities is right:  a casual arrangement where everyone benefits.

One things for certain.  It's a far superior system, for the golf course enthusiast, than the system here in the US.

[JohnV]

5. Most golf clubs have 18 hole courses and a sufficient number of members to fill the course up regularly.

Not in Pittsburgh these days which is why more of them are opening up.  Some are just moving from private to semi-private or even public while others are doing things which could put their private club status in jeopardy such as advertising for members in newspapers and TV and getting booths at golf shows.

We, at the WPGA, spent a lot of time over the last few years advising some of our private clubs on the plusses and minuses of these tactics.  As some of them say, if it is a choice between maintaining private status and staying open, they will choose the later.

The big clubs such as Oakmont, Fox Chapel and Pittsburgh Field Club don't have any problems with membership but a lot of the mid-range ones with big fancy clubhouses and the like do.  The more low-budget clubs like Hannastown are a mixed bag with some doing fine and others not so well.

[Gib_Papazian]

Here is what I think is the bottom line on the difference between America and the U.K.:

We simply have more ill-mannered idiots running around America than they do in the U.K.

So we have to be more careful about who gets in the front gate.

[ForkaB]

Rich Goodale,

On your list of items you left off the loss of all licenses issued by government agencies, such as the club's liquor license, for failure to comply to public policy, which would be unavoidable for a private club.

Pat

You seem to be saying that if a club were to comply with legally based and socially acceptable policies (i.e. OSHA, anti-discrimination, etc.) it would lose it's liquor license.  This certainly would be a "cost" to members.  Not surprisingly, this very avenue is what the government in Scotland is using (very effectively) to pressure golf clubs here to give women equal membership status.

PS--I still haven't heard form TE Paul nor you as to how much these other issues (taxation, OSHA, etc.) would actually cost the average private club.  Not that much, I would guess, given your silence.

PPS--I agree with Sean A. that you and your and TEP's clubs have every right to act as you do.  I just do not agree that this posture is at all consonant with the nature of the game of golf, at least as I was taught it (by various members of private clubs) and as I know it (as a current member of two private clubs).

Cheers

Rich

[Gene Greco]

Mark et al:

    The question was answered by Pat in two of his posts.

    The Sand Hills Golf Club at first allowed those who had a burning desire to play the course write a letter requesting to do so. Only a small number of those written were granted access but it was a nice gesture on the part of the club to lessen the this frustration a bit of gaining access to the greatest private American courses.

     This was quashed when Pat's legal points were considered a little more closely.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I'm not sure what you mean by private clubs before 1960 let in public play. That certainly was not true. There has always been guest play at private clubs but guest play is not opening a private club or course up to public play. At any private club I've ever known if someone wants to play the course they have to do it with a member or know a member who will sponsor them. It's been that way as long as I can remember and I'm a lot older than you are.

Paul Turner:

You (and Rich) keep saying that the system in Europe is better. Better for whom? It may be better for golfers who want access to play private clubs but I don't think the way it's done in Europe is better than America for the member of a private club.

[TEPaul]

"PS--I still haven't heard form TE Paul nor you as to how much these other issues (taxation, OSHA, etc.) would actually cost the average private club.  Not that much, I would guess, given your silence.

PPS--I agree with Sean A. that you and your and TEP's clubs have every right to act as you do.  I just do not agree that this posture is at all consonant with the nature of the game of golf, at least as I was taught it (by various members of private clubs) and as I know it (as a current member of two private clubs)."

Rich:

I just can't quote you how much these things actually cost. I'm not a club lawyer or tax accountant you know. This issue did come up once not that long ago at the board of my club and for a number of reasons it's just not worth it to them. And besides no private club I know wants state and federal governments trying to tell them who they must have as members. Basically this is what a lot of this "privacy" status in America is all about. If you can't understand that then I guess we just don't have much more to discuss on this issue.

In the last 10-12 years a series of lawsuits against private clubs tested these issues and only served to make many private clubs really tighten up on their policies---basically just to be sure to get in conformance with "privacy" statutes. The likes of a Martha Burk and her public challenge to ANGC probably did far more to encourage private clubs and some of the best courses in America to shut their doors even tighter than it did to encourage them to open them more.

[David_Tepper]

There have been at least two instances in Northern California where private clubs built within the past 10 or so years were required to offer public access to their golf course in return for getting permit approvals to build their courses.

As a result, Granite Bay (east of Sacramento) is open for public play on Mondays. Cordevalle (a VERY high-end club south of San Jose) is also required to offer public access, but there has been some debate over how often and a what price public access will be made available.  

Although I am not sure, my guess is these clubs are operating as for-profit enterprises and are not membership owned.

[TEPaul]

Also in Europe some of the most famous courses, certainly many of the oldest are on "common" ground. That arrangement virtually does not exist in America with private golf clubs. Almost all private clubs I know of are on private property (if they know what's good for their future). The private club in America is obviously looked upon legally and otherwise as something like a big extended family. Does anyone really think it's logical that a local, state or federal government or their laws should tell an entity such as that who they can accept as members or guests? How would you like local, state and federal governements to tell Americans families who they had to let into their homes?

[rgkeller]

If a club has employees, OSHA rules apply to that club.

A private club may be not-for-profit or for-profit.

Membership in a prestigious private club can be very beneficial to one's bank account, which is why so many members push for their offspring to become members.

[ForkaB]

Membership in a prestigious private club can be very beneficial to one's bank account, which is why so many members push for their offspring to become members.

Surely you jest, rg!

Tom Paul, Pat Mucci and others laid that old left-wing drivel to bed on an ANGC thread a few years ago.  There is absolutely no financial benefit to be derived from belonging to a golf club, prestigious or not.  Or at least that's what I've been told........

[David_Tepper]

Mark Rowlinson/Rich Goodale,

Maybe you could enlighten us Yanks about the tradition of 'rambling' in the UK, which allows hikers and walkers to access foot paths across private property throughout Britain.  My guess is that many Yanks, who believe with near religious fervor in the sanctity of private property, would be shocked such a tradition exists. Just another example of how life is different in the UK than it is in the USA.

DT

 

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