[Adam_F_Collins]

Based on what he says, I've loved Johnny Miller at times and I've hated him at others. To be honest, he's probably my favorite golf analyst. But I've never heard him saying anything about golf course architecture that I've agreed with or seen much depth of perception in. That doesn't mean much more than it says.

And who am I?

Have any of you played any of his courses? How much or little does he have to do with the work? What's the scoop.

www.johnnymillerdesign.com

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not a fan of his architecture or his comentary. I did like him as a golfer.

[Andy Doyle]

I played my first JM course about 10 days ago - Harmony Preserve in Central Florida.  I liked it a lot - greens were very firm and rolled very true; not a huge amount of contour, though.  Fairways were also very firm.  The property was very open and had that windswept feeling.  The visuals were deceptive - it played somewhat easier than it looked.

Andy

[A_Clay_Man]

I've golfed a handful of his courses. Most recently Thanksgiving Point. I did like the backnine there, the way the course started to use the natural baranca as a cross-carry, especially on the par 3's, and, some decent diagonal carries on others. But that was it, as far utilizing natural features.  

Eagle Ridge had some serious over-shaping that bordered on goofy golf, and a reliance on some goofy trees, but, there are some features there, that taken out of context, are not bad. A little soul and less flow. I can still hear the hammering from the spit and kleenex condos they were building, as close as they could get to the course.

[Mike Benham]

You find some interesting things when you do research ...

As documented in these pages, The Bridges Golf Club in San Ramon, CA is a bad golf course ... bad piece of property, poor golf holes ...

I am not a fan of Stone Tree in Novato, CA ... again a difficult piece of property and I can only think of one or two decent holes ...   Stone Tree Golf Club

I played Brighton Crest in Fresno many years ago, I don't remember much about it except that there are very few bunkers for a modern design (not a design feature common among his other designs) ...   Brighton Crest G&CC

I have heard good things about Maderas Golf Club in the San Diego area, but perhaps that is because Neal Meagher contributed to the design  Maderas Golf

Finally, JMD takes credit as a Design Consultant[/i] at the North Course at Coto de Caza in Orange County.  Golfcourse.com lists this course as a RTJ, Jr. design but there are a few holes that have JMD signature on it ... JMD states that he hung out his shingle in 1984 while Coto North was built in 1987, perhaps he was an unpaid intern for RTJ, Jr.

Is this a Johnny hole (Tommy N. will comment I'm sure ...) ?

[Matt_Cohn]

I've played Thanksgiving Point in Utah...

...and Maderas near San Diego...

...and I really like them both. They're both big, fairly difficult golf courses that feel like they're built for good players - which I think is one reason those two courses appeal to me. I don't think they're the most playable courses for higher handicappers, and they're actually both kind of severe in spots. I loved it, and I can see why others might not, but I give both of those courses very high marks!

[Thomas_Brown]

Mike - I've always thought the Coto hole #17 photo you posted is really RTJ Jr., but I could be wrong.  Even if it is Johnny, does he really want to claim that hole?  I play 1 iron, 7 iron there to avoid playing the golf hole.  I've always thought that the rough lines on the hole off the tee & running up to the green are wrong - they just remove recovery and interesting options.  The back left hole green section is the only redeeming feature.

I'm not a Johnny Miller architect fan.
Too little fun, severe design school on the greens(ironically).

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
Yes, I will comment......

The 2nd at Coto De Caza-North is a pretty decent golf hole that was designed by RTJ and consulted by Johnny Miller. At least I like it, and it remains to this day my favorite RTJII course. Not knockdown-drag-me-out great, but a great place and environment to play the game of golf.

Maderas is a good Neil Meagher track.

[Evan_Green]

Metropolitan Golf Links near Oakland Airport is surprisingly good in my opinion and is my favorite Johnny Miller course I've played.

It is clearly one of the worlds ugliest pieces of property (literally built over a garbage dump) sandwiched between Oakland Airport, a sewage treatment plant and an industrial drag.

However, the course is quite good. The greens are not overdone since it is a muni- owned by Oakland and there are several holes that require a good deal of strategic thought, particularly in terms of line off the tee.

There are effectively zero trees on the course and it gets a good amount of wind coming off the SF Bay. It is a lot more like a seaside course than most who claim they are "Scottish Links"

It is no all world gem, but it is a good golf course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Evan,
I know Fred Bliss is Johnny's pal and all, but I thought Metro was all his?

[Evan_Green]

Tommy:

According to both
GolfCourse.com and the NCGA Blue Book, designer is listed as "Johnny Miller and Fred Bliss"

How much Johnny actually did, I don't know. I suppose they could just be using his name, but in any case thats the info I was going off of...

[THuckaby2]

Concur with Evan re Metropolitan Golf Links - pretty darn good course on pretty awful property.  Others here like it as well - we've discussed it several times.

Another one not yet mentioned is Eagle Ridge, in Gilroy, CA.  WAY over the top bunkering and greens, but some good holes... just way too severe in many places.  Again, Miller is listed as part of the design team, and I have no idea how much or little real work he did there.

One I haven't played but people tend to generally cite when talk of worst courses they've ever played comes up is Badlands, near Las Vegas....

In general Johnny does not have the best of reps for his design work.  But Metropolitan is pretty cool, and would seem to be among his most recent work (if indeed he actually did anything there at all), so maybe he's coming around.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Huck,

      Badlands is exactly as the name says ... a bad course on a bad piece of property. Its target golf at is absolute worst, save your money, save your time.

      The only other course I played with JM name attached was Maderas which I liked very much, but suspect that his input was minimal.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

Due Process (Colts Neck, NJ) is a well done design by Miller and collaborator Gene Bates. The layout is on generally flat land -- ironic since Colts Neck is considered to be Jersey's horse country. The interplay of different holes is done well and the greens are a mixture of sizes and playing angles.

Overall -- where would the course rate in NJ. I would say it's among the 20 best we have in the Garden State. Part of the problem rests with the actual site. It is rarely inspirational but the quality of the holes is well done given those constraints.

P.S. Miller also did a course near to Due Process originally called Shore Oaks. Also a dual effort with Bates and about one or two steps behind Due Process in overall quality.

Just a few other thoughts on other courses of JM's I've played.

I agree with Adam about Thanksgiving Point in Lehi, UT although I am likely a bigger fan of the layout. The course is clearly helped with the direct intervention of man's hands -- the greens are in some cases rolling like oceans waves and in some instances it can overkill. It's on the back nine that Thanksgiving Point really picks up the pace -- the barranca Adam referenced is used in some neat ways and the general pacing of the holes is well balanced and varied.

What's amazing at Thanksgiving Point is the ownerships intention to close the course on Sundays since they are Mormons. I wonder if such a policy still holds through today.

P.S. For those intersted -- Thanksgiving Point plays 7,700 yards from the tips and is one of the highest slopes and cr's in all of the Beehive State. From all the courses I have played in Utah I would have it among my personal top five.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

When you guys refer to Johnny did this and Johnny's hole here, we are all assuming are we not, that Johnny lends his name and shows up for appearances but has little design input?
The design firm associates design the holes right?
Now Gary Koch and Roger Maltbie may not say this on TV, but isn't it okay here for us to at least say Miller's design firm?

[Mike_Young]

After reading Lynn's post I am beginning to think that maybe Eddie Bauer did not have that much to do with the Ford Explorer he designed.

[THuckaby2]

Lynn:  that was most definitely how I was couching my responses.  I have no clue what input Johnny has, if any.  And at least up here, he seems to be paired with different actual architects at different courses...

So the comments are just about courses on which his name appears in the credits, so to speak.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Lynn -

I refer to JMD for the exact reason you state.  Go to Neal Meaher's website and you can see so pictures of Neal telling Johnny where the port-a-pottys are on the job site

Going through this exercise makes be realize that I probably have played more JMD courses then any other architect ...  

[John_Cullum]

Mike Young:

Doesn't that hole above look a little familiar?

[Thomas_Brown]

Tommy -Isn't that 17?
I agree, it looks like 2, but I think it's 17.

[johnk]

At Eagle Ridge and at The Bridges in San Ramon, the JM team put in holes that are copies of the Eden.  So at least they got that going for 'em...

Now there's a Gary Koch course down in Orlando that I did really like - something like "Mystic Dunes"?

Maybe some enterprising tourist board will do a Trail of courses all designed by announcers - Miller, Faldo, Koch, and, of course, who can forget Nancy Lopez's design work for the Villages - AS SEEN ON TV!

[THuckaby2]

At Eagle Ridge and at The Bridges in San Ramon, the JM team put in holes that are copies of the Eden.  So at least they got that going for 'em...

They did?
What holes?
Reviewing such in my mind....

ER:  can't recall any that come close.
Bridges:  don't really want to remember.  

But neither of these courses are burned into my memory... Must be subconscious at work here.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
We hit on this discussion before--its #2, you can tell by the houses which on #17 would be actually be the main road. I even posted the aerial on it. Johnny wanted it that way!  

[THuckaby2]

Tom,
We hit on this discussion before--its #2, you can tell by the houses which on #17 would be actually be the main road. I even posted the aerial on it. Johnny wanted it that way!  

OK, got it.  Don't recall that previous thread, but oh well.

In any case, as I look at the golf hole, well I guess I can see the thought involved.... but man if that's an Eden than I'm Craig Stadler.

By that I mean, the basic shapes are the same, but the quality and overall look are VASTLY different.

I've often cited this golf hole as the poster-hole for stupid superfluous bunkerng punishing only the lesser golfers....

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I was posting to Tom Brown.

Tom, the side by side #2 & 17 at Johny Miller & RTJII's Cota De Caza. I was close, but no cigar. Your right it is #17 It took the cart path to figure it out--and Terraserver!

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