[Matt_Cohn]

What's up with Apache Stronghold? Why is their peak season green fee only $35 to walk/$45 to ride? It's so low that it seems like something must be wrong with the course.

Apache Stronghold Green Fees

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - Not sure  but the conditioning of AS has been an issue in the past.  

if I can define a new quotient and "top of", AS may take that prize of all golf courses for my new category in the world.
 
     Interesting Golf Course Architecture/greens fee spent.

In other words, you may be the most architecturally educated per dollar you spend at AS compared to any course in the world.

JC

[scott_wood]

as good as the current price is, 2 yrs ago the early Dec special was a hotel room, 2 rounds of golf with cart, either a sleeve of balls or a hat, AND the all you could eat dinner AND breakfast buffet!!!!

the GOLF was FANTASTIC  ....but we wish we had driven in town to the steak house

[Paul Richards]

Conditioning was certainly an issue.  However, once that problem was rectified, you had a spectacular course on a wonderful site - one of the best Arizona layouts outside of Desert Forest!

[JC Urbina]

Matt
 I just made a visit to Apache Stronghold about a month ago and I will admit that the turf was as good as I have seen in a while.  Ron Maheffy and crew have spent a many hours overseeding and prepping the course for the summer play.  The greens were in great condition and they have spent a lot of time reconditioning the bunkers.  Take it for what it is worth, I was amazed at what they have been doing with the course and I was pleasently surprised.  Ron and I spent time remarking bunkers, mowing lines and a few little areas of revegatation that needed to be done.  Built with Apache Nation labor, I wish it well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Talking with Jim Urbina who went out and saw the course, its on its way back quite fashionably, and hopefully ready to take-up where it left off.

Apache Stronghold may be one of the Top 5 in the desert, its that good.

[Gary_Mahanay]

JC Urbina,

What kind of overseeding for summer play do they do at Apache Stronghold?  I thought they had already seeded a new variety of common bermudagrass ( Yukon, Riviera, or Princess) last year?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I guess they are trying to attract more play with lower green fees. It's a hike to Globe from Scottsdale and Phoenix. There too many options for the winter visitor near the resorts. When C&C course opens at WeKoPa, there may not be a need to travel there unless one REALLY wants to see and play AS. It really needs some good press if conditions have improved to attract more locals and visitors.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Hard to get the good press when people insist on talking about the former conditioning problems.  I haven't seen it in some time, but Jim Urbina has more time in it than anyone, and if he says it's looking good I'll trust him.

Gary M:

Now that they've got bermuda on the fairways it should be perfect in the summer.  They may start overseeding next year for winter play, but it will be a very light overseed ... too much and it will take a toll on the bermuda, which has a relatively short growing season.  [This is why they tried cool-season grass on the fairways to begin with, and that's what caused all the conditioning problems.]

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

I'm sure Ron has a handle on the overseeding, but converse to what you said, it can be detrimental to overseed at too light of a rate, thereby producing healthier, better established ryegrass that gets tough to eradicate.

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks, Joe, I never heard that angle before.  Frankly I wish they just wouldn't overseed it at all .. the bermuda plays fine dormant, firm and fast, but all those northerners down there in the winter want to see color.

I just noticed that the premise of Matt's question was "Why do they charge so little?," and that everyone assumes this means there's something wrong with the course.  Ironic, considering all the laments about how other courses charge too MUCH.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

I meant "good press" locally and nationally. GCA has a limited scope. Can't AS generate some PR?

Steve

[Jason Topp]

At what elevation is the course?  Any cooler in the summer than Tucson or Phoenix?  

[A_Clay_Man]

I think the elevation is close to 3300.

I must note, that the drive has to be worth it from Scottsdale.

How many of those other choices are not housing lined?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Adam

Among the "quality" or "better" publics in PHX metro, only Talking Stick North&South, WeKoPa(soon to be 2 courses with the new C&C course under construction) and Whirlwind(2 courses) are not housing lined. All of the aforementioned are on Indian land. I would add Papago, the PHX muni, if it ever gets restored.

People still pay the big bucks to play Troon North and Grayhawk.

Steve

[Don_Mahaffey]

I talk to my brother Ron a lot about AS and although I certainly don't claim to know everything about what they do there, this is the first I've heard about overseeding with rye.

Unfortunately for AS, Ron is on his way out. The Apache Nation is a very tough place to work for an outsider and the issues he has had to deal with the last few years would wear anyone down. It's sad because I know how much the course inspired him and how hard he has worked to try and bring it back and overcome the poor conditioning reputation AS developed.

I have played a lot of golf in the west and I place AS in my personal top 5. I think it’s underappreciated by those who rate courses. No doubt the poor conditioning in years past hurt, but for my money it is one of the great golf courses in the western US. Sadly, I believe those who run the Apache Nation really have no idea what a gem they have and from my personal observation aren’t really interested in doing the things needed to maximize the business potential the golf course offers.

[Doug Wright]

Don,

Very sorry to hear this. I know Ron has busted his butt there, and it will be tough sledding for his replacement to do what he's done. I hope Ron is headed for "greener pastures!"

Apache Stronghold is a terrific golf course, well worth a visit under any circumstances. If Ron's leaving, however, I'd suggest getting there sooner rather than later...

Best,  

[Bill_McBride]

I've only played the course once, a couple of years ago when the turf wasn't too great, but I would rather play it than most any of those over-irrigated, over-manicured Scottsdale courses!   Great layout, very fun short par 4s, strategy everywhere, the best Redan in the western states..... you name it, Apache Stronghold's got it!  It's also an excellent walk as the paths from the front of the tees are much shorter than the winding cart paths.

If the turf has improved as much as mentioned, the course will only be better.

As I've mentioned before, you don't have to bring your tux to the AS casino!  

[Matt_Ward]

Don:

Ditto my regards to your brother -- I had the pleasure in being at AS when he was there and could see the steps being taken.

The sad reality is that I have to seriously wonder if the folks running the show have any clues on how to market the facility.

The Best Western on site is just a step or two above the accomodations Mary & Joseph had at the stables.

The food is non-descript and believe me when I say I'm not suggesting something akin to the Four Seasons.

AS is out of the way for those coming to the Valley -- you have to WANT to go there and indeed the golf course is well designed. But turf conditions have to be there on a consistent basis for national honors. I certainly can't speak or address the issues Ron faced but from a distance I have enjoyed my times at AS -- you get a rich variety of holes that very, very few courses in AZ can offer.

Clearly, the facility needs to go beyond the 101 level marketing plan they have been doing. The sad part is that other tribes have done quite well in how they manage their facilities. AS might need to take a page from what others are doing.

AS could become one of the great tragedies in modern golf and that's one category no course of this caliber should be remotely near.

[Matt_Cohn]

I just noticed that the premise of Matt's question was "Why do they charge so little?," and that everyone assumes this means there's something wrong with the course.  Ironic, considering all the laments about how other courses charge too MUCH.

Tom,

I think you understood the context of my question but I wanted to clarify and make sure. Low green fees are great, but they also make me nervous - "Why is this course charging $35 when my muni charges $40, and my muni isn't very good?" Also, I ask myself, why did AS have to actually lower its green fees? Did it get somehow "worse"?

It sounds like AS has or had a variety of reasons: it's out of the way, the marketing is bad (it probably is if I had to start this post in the first place), the conditioning wasn't good, it doesnt have a fancy clubhouse, etc., and maybe the original green fees were too high given all of those factors.

So my comment was based on two things really: 1) Why is the green fee so low? and 2) Why is the green fee is lower than it used to be? (Of course this post has answered those questions!)

Like everyone else here, if I didn't think it was an amazing course, i wouldn't be so concerned over its fate. I still have great memories of my round there.

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