[Scott_Burroughs]

Nice to see "hidden gem" Pine Dunes at #15.  Have to admit I've never heard of Walden at Lake Conroe at #11 (?).  Did it change names recently?

Scott,
Have you been to Pine Dunes?
I think Lou likes it as well.
Hard for me to see it up that high.  

No, I haven't played it.  I guess I shouldn't have said "Nice" to see it at #15, I probably should have said "Interesting" to see it there.  I just happen to pay attention to the course since I think I may have been the first to mention the course on GCA.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Scott,
I played Pine Dunes this past year and I was somewhat disappointed, although it was well above average.  My expectations may have been high.  Some holes seemed out of character, at least one poorly placed lake, and the short 4 was average, I don't remember.

John,
I won't rank Jack Rabbit, but I'd say it is a very good course worth a game if in town.  
The green complexes are better than very good.  The holes are tight and home lined.  It's an easy walk, and there are a good mix of holes.  The par 3's are nice.  The three 5's are good.

Cheers

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,

We've had this discussion before.  There was nothing at Jackrabbit that really stood out.  It was not a conditioning issue, though it didn't impress from that standpoint either.  The housing did detract considerably from the experience, but this can be usually overcomed with some outstanding holes (like at Crown Colony).  I can't think of a single hole that really captivated me.  As a companion course to its bigger brother, Jackrabbit is complimentary.  But I am not that big of a fan of Cypress either.  Champions is a premier 36 hole player's club in Texas for reasons beyond its two very good, challenging courses.  Obviously, my colleagues on this panel do not agree with me.  BTW, I liked the Woodlands- Player course much better.

As to Pine Dunes, the 18th is a poor, ackward finishing hole.  The long redan on the front is nice looking but it is too long, the ball doesn't react from the right like on a true redan, and the mostly blind lake on the left shouldn't be there.  A couple of the par 4s on the back are also somewhat bland.  I do like the course very much, its rustic look, the undulating grees and surrounds, and the considerable variety of holes.  I don't have a problem at all with its ranking.

 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike,
We've had this discussion before.  

And I hope to have it again, in person, on any course, in the near future.

There are 18 good green complexes at Jackrabbit.

Cheers

P.S.
Lou - where did you place Lubbock?
I would have had it quite high.  Probably the most fun course I've seen in Texas.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Lou,

Did you ever get a chance to play the # 14 ranked Gentle Creek Golf Club in Prosper?  We had the NTPGA club pro championship and a state am qualifier and a FINA senior's event there last year so from the list of voters, it should have gotten a pretty good look.  Probably a lot better look than numbers 15 through the fifth 10.  There's been a lot of back slapping and congratulations going on at the club the last couple of days.  Should we put all that much stock in this list?  Because it sure seems to me that there might be some better courses from #15 to #50 that may not have been seen by as many of the voters.  

[mike_beene]

Gary,I think Gentle Creek is an excellent course and maybe my favorite in the area.Most here would like it.Wide fairways,the green sites feel like a combination of Old Course and Kapalua(you hit every kind of chip shot),the houses are not intrusive.If there is a better membership deal,I am not aware of it except for Austin Golf Club nonresident maybe.
I really like the bermuda greens.No summer mush.If it were just a little closer to me...

[Steve Lang]

 

Woodlands CC with 2 in top 50.. glad to see the Player Course get some ink, thanks lou!  i think its the hardest course in woodlands.. sorry jack..

can't believe walden on lake conroe ranks #11, better than old tpc now WCC east course, but they do have some real nice topography and a nicer grill back in 2004..  funny that redstone is ranked much lower ..

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Nuzzo,

I had Rawls very high; definitely top 25.  It is a course that takes some getting used to.  It is very different than what we normally see, specially out in west Texas.  I think that it will move up in time.

Gary and Mike B,

I have played Gentle Creek and think very highly of the course.  Its DMN ranking is deserved in my opinion.  I understand that the $10,000 initiation fee has been lowered.  It is a very attractive deal, though Dallas Athletic Club with 36 holes and a closer-in location may be a bit better.  What is the non-resident deal at Austin Golf Club?  If my daughter gets accepted at UT, I may be interested.

As to how much stock one should put on the list, I would say not a tremendous amount.  It reflects personal preferences, and we all have different ones.  As a guide for choosing good courses to play when one travels to unfamiliar places, I think that it is very valuable.  I would be surprised if you picked any of the courses on the four lists and, with reasonable expectations, that you'd be totally disappointed with it.  While Texas doesn't have a Pine Valley, Cypress Point, or Sand Hills, it does have a bunch of solid courses which are challenging and great fun to play.

 
Steve,

I think that the Player course is underrated.  It took Andy Hodson to get me to go out there and I am sure glad that I did.  My expectations weren't high and I was very favorably surprised (enough to stick around and play another quick 18 prior to making the long drive back to Dallas).

Walden on LC is a fun course with some excellent holes on the back.  The front is weak in places, but overall I agree with its ranking.  If Crown Colony did not have such a poor land plan with houses right on top of some tees, I would give it the edge.  As it is, I think that I prefer playing Walden.

I need to play the old TPC course again.  It was nearly underwater when I played it in a practice round for a qualifier (which was postponed because of heavy rains).   The problem with Houston as a golf destination is the damned weather- it seems like it always rains, and when it doesn't, it feels like a steam bath.  Despite, there is a bunch of good golf and great golfers down there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Lou
Interesting to note that I do not see Vaquero on GW's new list of top 100 Modern.Have the national raters not been there in sufficient numbers yet?

Steve

[Lou_Duran]

Steve,

I am not privy to that information.  Perhaps Brad Klein can chime in.

Personally, I believe that Vaquero belongs in the modern top 100, but I think that DN is a better course by a considerable margin.  The people who don't think highly of DN believe that the greens and surrounds are way over the top.

I've heard from a couple of credible sources that the pros prefer Vaquero as a place to play and practice because it more closely resembles the courses they normally encounter on the tour.  Vaquero doesn't have nearly the elevation changes that DN has, and the greens are much more tame.  It is probably a more "playable" and "fairer" course.

Vaquero also emphasizes service to a much greater degree.  In fact, for my taste it goes overboard (but I am not representative of their typical member).  I don't know if the DMN panel was influenced excessively by the excellent service.  The DMN criteria does allow for this to be taken into consideration, but only in a minor way.  Since service is not an important element for me, it has little bearing on my evaluation.  

[Steve Lang]

 

Lou Duran,

After living here for 13 years, last Friday I finally played Walden on Lake Conroe (while ms sheila has played it over a dozen times).. couldn't resist, since DMN has recently reaffirmed it's #11 rank in TX..

The first five holes are pretty bland .. is it still ranked so high due to being a historical favorite??  No question the double dogleg par 5 hole #11 going down to Lake Conroe is great (though one doesn't need the plaque there to sing it's DMN's praises), but I can't believe the course still ranks that high!  Ya'll don't get out of NE TX much, eh??

[Lou_Duran]

Steve,

I agree that the first few holes are not awe inspiring.  Unlike Spyglass, it does get you started and builds from there.  There are a bunch of good holes out there, and, in my opinion, it's an excellent test of golf.

As to not getting out of NE Texas, if you look at the panel roster you would find that the Houston area is very well represented.  I am doubtful that Walden would get such a high rating if it was due to a bunch of dumbasses from north Texas not having a clue about golf courses, or the south Texas contingent stuffing the ballot.  Walden is well known and respected by most.  Perhaps you can start publishing your own list.

Mike Nuzzo,

I did verify that Rawls was short by a few ballots for the overall list (min. of 20 needed).   But if it had met that threshold at the average rating it received, I am told that it would have made the top 50 very comfortably.

[Steve Lang]

 

Lou,

OUCH!!

Did i touch a nerve there?  

Sorry..  

It's just that I hear folks questioning why the DMN's rankings reach out to the whole state??  

Also, needing 20 votes for a course to be ranked doesn't sound like much to get qualified, but apparently it is the process, versus judgements made on intrinsic qualities by critics or raters or editors..

[Gary_Mahanay]

Steve,

Never played Walden on Lake Conroe but growing up here in north Texas it seems to have taken on a legendary status.  Robert von Hagge has done some good work here so that may have helped the legend grow, don't know.

Out of the 92 voters on the panel the best that I can tell is that 35 of them are either pros, supt., or amateur golfers from the south Texas section.  There may be more like golf writers that I did not recognize.  Lou is one of 19 amateur golfers listed.

Now I have never met Lou Duran in my life, but I do know many of the other voters and have met and had lengthy conversations with one of the two architects listed for this ranking.  Out of the 92 voters, I believe Lou is the only one who participates on this site.  

So, knowing many of the other voters and knowing Lou from reading this site, I would put more stock in what he says than most of the others on the list.  And that's not coming from one of those "north Texas dumbasses"

Gary

[Jeff_Brauer]

After some conversations with the DMN, they have invited me to be on the panel.  Assuming I follow through, there will be one more northern dumbass on their to bollux up the works.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Jeff,

Is the DMN going to give you back Squaw Valley and Ridgeview Ranch?

[Michael_Burrows]

Scott, Austin Golf Club is not rated higher because Mr.Crenshaw and its members really don't want the course to be ranked. They want to keep a low profile.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott, Austin Golf Club is not rated higher because Mr.Crenshaw and its members really don't want the course to be ranked. They want to keep a low profile.

Brother Burrows,

According to Mr. Duran, a course can't be on the list unless at least 20 panelists have played the course, and it's on the list, so plenty have seen it.  Just because they don't want it to be ranked, they can't stop people from rating it onced they've played it anonymously and they can't lower the panelists ratings unless there are members of the panel who are AGC members and they purposefully deflate their personal rating.  AGC must already have the minimum number of votes, but it just doesn't rate that highly.

My feeling is that AGC likely would rank higher personally if I were lucky enough to play the top 50 or so courses listed (I've only played 2).  I tend to like subtlety, routing, good bunkering, and strategy over flash, fancy clubhouses, and if the course has been on TV, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Lou_Duran]

Gary Mahanay,

There are many people on the DMN panel who care greatly about golf and are very competent in what they do.  I spend a considerable amount of time on this project and enjoy every minute of it.  I strive to be among the better raters.  Hopefully, I am getting there.

As to panelist participation on gca.com, there are a number who do lurk from time to time.  I know that a link to this thread was forwarded to a few panelists and the DMN.

Mr. Burrows,

I asked about the number of ballots on AGC for last year's list, and there were something like 30.  I suspect that there were a few more for this year's list.  My understanding is that Mr. Crenshaw and his board decided not to comp raters or otherwise exempt them from other club rules regarding guest play.  I doubt that it is Ben's intention to keep raters out.  I am also told that these rules are relaxed depending on who the person is or who calls on his behalf.  Personally, I will probably play the course this year going through the front door as a guest of a member.  I have yet to hear anyone tell me that it is a must play.

[Lou_Duran]

Steve Lang,

No problem or exposed nerve here.  Just giving you back a little of yours.

Perhaps you misunderstood me about the 20 ballot minimum.  In order to be eligible to be on the 50 list, the course has to have been rated by at least 20 panel members AND received the requisite rating.  For example, if Vaquero had only been played and rated by 18 raters, it would not have been on the list.

As a point of reference, GW, I believe, has a 15 ballot minimum.  I am told that this number has some meaningful statistical significance.  What it is is well beyond my level of expertise and interest.

Gary M,

In regards to attribution, I am told that the courses are contacted by the DMN for this information.  It is the owner, manager, or professional who provides the identity of the architect (s).

[CHrisB]

Mr. Burrows,

I asked about the number of ballots on AGC for last year's list, and there were something like 30.  I suspect that there were a few more for this year's list.  My understanding is that Mr. Crenshaw and his board decided not to comp raters or otherwise exempt them from other club rules regarding guest play.  I doubt that it is Ben's intention to keep raters out.  I am also told that these rules are relaxed depending on who the person is or who calls on his behalf.  Personally, I will probably play the course this year going through the front door as a guest of a member.  I have yet to hear anyone tell me that it is a must play.

Lou,
It's a must play. The stretch of #8-11 alone makes the course a must see.

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