[THuckaby2]

Slag:

Would you play it for free?  You get the same feel, the same experience, without the regret....

We all have our prices, most definitely.  

And look carefully - you'll notice no one ever mentioned "scenic beauty" as a factor here.  Sure, rugged featureless desert can have a certain beauty, and does have a most definite beauty for those who like such... The key to Shadow Creek is NOT that it is more "beautiful" than the surronding desert, it's that it's so DIFFERENT.  Incredibly different.  Amazingly different.  Engineering marvel-ly different.  Get it?

Greatness can be defined in many ways, that's for sure.  However, to me also, each of "ingenuity, courage, sacrifice, perserverance, originality" are exemplified at Shadow Creek, in a certain way.  Yes, so is excessiveness, but hey, that's intentional.

It is one hell of a place, one that is very difficult not to be impressed by.

TH

[JakaB]

Slag,

I understand your logic..but what is your price point....personally I don't take my clubs to Vegas, Cancuun or Hawaii for much the same reason....except my reasons have nothing to do with price.

[Tim Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

There is a gentleman I met last summer who makes me doubt the unlimited budget course would be more fun to play.

The fellow was from somewhere in Texas and explained to me that his local muni cost about $28 to play. He went on to say there was talk about the green fees going up about ten dollars and how this would mean he would have to cut back playing.

Most likely the unlimited green fee courses simply mean folks like this gentleman couldn't play as much. Where is the fun in that?

Remember, people want to play more, not pay more.

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Interesting point, but it seems your inference is that Steve Wynn spending gazillions on Shadow Creek means Joe Q. Public pays more for his muni.  I can see the tie, but it is a very huge stretch.

Ok, fair enough, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see how one might say the PRINCIPLE behind Shadow Creek may be "bad", in many ways.

Even granting this, it takes nothing away from the achievement there, and what a darn fun golf course it is to play.  Call it a guilty pleasure.  There are many of those in this world, as well.

For most of us, anyway.  

TH

[rpurd]

I played this course a few years ago while out in Vegas for sweet 16 (fortunately I didn't have to pay the $1,000 at the time greens fee.....connections with Vegas Golf Team).  Anyway, I found it to a decent layout.  Having played many a desert course, it is one of the best, but it is not Fazio's best work.  Wade Hampton is by far a better architectual design.  I even prefer The Quarry or Estancia.  SC is good eye candy, but as a great course......I like others better.

[RJ_Daley]

We've had this discussion before about SC on numerous threads over the years.  I support Slag's comments and have continued to think that way from the day I visited there opening year, after having seen the show and tell presentation by Wynn and Fazio and construction foreman from Wadsworth at 1991 GCSAA in Vegas.  I saw it, didn't play it.

[Short Dog]

If you ain't make'in bank, then stick to scrub courses like Olympia or Medinah.

[Slag Bandoon]

Slag:

Would you play it for free?  You get the same feel, the same experience, without the regret....

TH

  Yes, I would.  But that won't happen.  It's not only the fact that its $500.  It's the idea of supporting a development like that. Supporting that fluff of pomp and circumstance. It has no value in my life.  That extraneous superfluosity (oh brother - talk about extraneous superfluosity) does not enlighten or educate me or make me a better person.  I want to play golf to get outdoors and walk and discover and learn and hit and swear and act freely on a natural stage - not with Broadway props.  I'd have just as good a time at Kahuku Golf Club on Oahu for 20 bucks and no fanfare (take your clubs JakaB).

    And Tom, No, I don't get it.

Is Shadow Creek Tom Fazio's high water mark for creative golf design?    


  

[A_Clay_Man]

Short Dog- Is that your professional opinion? I thought that spending 5 hours at $500 is like saving money in Vegas. I'll bet you could convince some hotel suit that it's costing them money.

Right on brother bert of the nort. Kind of like the first Pay per view event, if noone spent the idea she die. I am surprised JakaB hasn't pointed out how people pay more for that for some good tail. Golf is like a brothel, sucker.(not u)

[THuckaby2]

 Yes, I would.  But that won't happen.  It's not only the fact that its $500.  It's the idea of supporting a development like that. Supporting that fluff of pomp and circumstance. It has no value in my life.  That extraneous superfluosity (oh brother - talk about extraneous superfluosity) does not enlighten or educate me or make me a better person.  I want to play golf to get outdoors and walk and discover and learn and hit and swear and act freely on a natural stage - not with Broadway props.  I'd have just as good a time at Kahuku Golf Club on Oahu for 20 bucks and no fanfare (take your clubs JakaB).   

Slag - never say never - I would have said the exact same words two years ago, and I played it gratis.

And shit man, in the end it was just a golf round, not a statement of my life philosophy.  That course existed long before I knew about it, and will continue to exist long after I can swing a club.

I understand the high moral principle here, but remember, you're talking to the man who's always said "I can have fun playing golf on a parking lot if the friends and the beer are right."

My presence may have supported something that many find ojectionable.  That is certainly not the first time that has happened, nor the last time it will!

But rest assured, I do understand the principle.

However, you freely admit you too would play it for free.  You said "yes I would" to my question of would you play it for free, then gave the high-minded explanations... Interesting how far principle goes....    It's ok, come on over to the dark side, Slag.

As for SC being Tom Fazio's high water mark of design, that is for people far more qualified and knowledgeable of his body of work than I am to assess.  I have no idea.

I just know this was one hell of a fun golf course.

TH

[Slag Bandoon]

I would play any golf course for free.  Those are usually my favorites, too.   E.g., The "Other" Gleneagles, in Brora; Husum Hills in Washington and the local McCormack and Baxter Superfund Hazardous site where my skin starts to bubble after three holes.  SPF2000 lotion and Nomex socks required.

  $500 = 20 possible new discoveries around my state. Not 1 of which I've seen enough pictures of.  (No offense to the Henebry photos of SC, as they are superb.)

[THuckaby2]

Slag:

Very well, our terms are quite clear now.

No way I pay $500 to play ANY golf course unless the foursome is me, my Dad, Bob Huntley and Jack Nicklaus and in that case the venue wouldn't matter!  See, we all do have our price points.  

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

I recently asked Brad Klein if he thought the great classical architects would have accepted the job if they were alive and were made the offer by Steve Wynn and Brad thought that they would.  The reason being that architects have to make a living and designing and building courses is how they do it.  SC is not so far off the map that an architect would turn down the job.  Look at what else has been done in Las Vegas with an enormous budget such as Bali Hai and you have to appreciate SC.  $500 in Las Vegas is very misleading since a large number of players are casino guests and play for free.  The casino is marketing their product and the high roller has to believe that he is getting something for his money.  All of the better restaurants at the casinos are also over priced simply because they want the high rollers to think that they are getting something valuable from the casino.  I think that relative to the other courses Shadow Creek could probably justify a fee of about $275 in season if it were not for the history of the course and the fact that they would not want to give the impression that the course is less desirable so they are dropping the fees.  I think that you have to commend Steve Wynn for the fact that he built an understated clubhouse when compared to the course and the locker room is really wonderful.  It might be hard to justify the fee at SC but Pebble Beach is approaching this amount plus some ridiculous rate for a room which you must stay in to get a tee time. The same can be said for Kohler, Wisconsin and so on,  leading to the conclusion that golf is getting too darn expensive.  

[George Pazin]

Regarding the engineering aspect of SC -

Are there any practicing architects out there willing to comment on just how marvelous this engineering is? Seems to me, working with an unlimited budget allows for a lot of engineering, not neccessarily good engineering.

[jg7236]

Aesthetics, Aesthetics, Aesthetics.  The detail to this course is unbelievable.  When one meanders its way down through the deep pine trees and gets to the clubhouse, one wouldn't even know they are in Las Vegas.  One feels as if they are in a high desert forest playing one of the best courses in the world.  I have studied the course, read about it, and have seen it, but never have played it.  One day I think very soon, I will be playing this great course.  In my opinion I think it is one of Fazio's best pieces of work. There are probably a lot of other golf course architects out there today who could do the same thing with unlimited funds in the desert of about 43 million dollars.  Sodding the entire course, transplanting mature pine trees throughout the entire course, and creating mafnificient waterfalls.  This is only my opinion guys, I love any one thing that Mr. Wynn is involved in, because everything he does is sucessfull because of his high expectations and great detail.  

[Michael Moore]

Lost somewhere in the archives is the greatest post of all, by someone who wrote about Steve Wynn's advanced retinitis pigmentosa and subsequent tunnel vision and how that was a key factor in the design of Shadow Creek.

I wish I could remember the details. It was something about the need for Mr. Wynn to have "tunnely" golf holes so that he could see them and Mr. Fazio coming up with perfect aesthetics to accomodate that.  It made the hair on my neck stand up, like something out of Edgar Allen Poe.

Author, reveal yourself and tell it again!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

How does everyone reconcile their lowly opinions of the golf course, its lack of strategy with Tom Doak's 9 on his scale ?

Tom Doak also lists Shadow Creek amongst his gourmet choices, not bad company if you examine the list.

So, it's on the gourmet list of 31 courses and gets a 9 on the Doak Scale.

What is Tom Doak missing that you guys see so clearly ?

[RJ_Daley]

MM, that vision thing of Wynn's is a well known part of the lore of how the golf course was built.  I, along with numerous others had noted that in several previous posts that dealt with SC, as I had noted above.  I attended the lecture at GCSAA show that Wynn and FAz put on and Wynn himself described how his condition gave him what he felt was an advantage to only seeing the narrow corridor of the hole, and how that field of focus was beneficial in his concentrating his attention to the appropriate details of the hole as they unfold down the line of play.  

Wynn was actually led on the stage by Kenny Rogers who had then recently built his own course and a few photos of that were also shown.  I remember thinking that Rogers' in many ways seemed more like a real golf course.  At that time, I was much more impressionalble, and I did go ooh and ah about the engineering aspects they described in their lecture of the courses construction.  But, as I have grown a bit in my limitted ability to see really great architecture, I am not in the least overwhelmed at SC, as it is more a feat of average engineering design backed by sufficient money, and not like building a highway across the summit of previously impassable mountains or anything like that. Without a doubt, the theme hotels in Vegas make SC look like a little outdoor patio job of construction/engineering by comparison.  It simply isn't really an engineering top marvel of the world.  Just, a highly built out golf course by a big thinker GCA really.  When you add to that the notion that many whom I respect in their knowledge of how really good golf courses play, say it is a little better than "OK", and not even Faz's best, I'm thinking why would I want to buy into that, to have my balls cleaned and my ass shined by the waitstaff?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat M:

For what it's worth I can't fanthom what Tom Doak had in my mind in giving SC a 9 on his scale. I've also re-read his comments many times over. I'd say you could easily make a case with several other TF designs -- Wade Hampton, The Estancia, The Quarry at LaQuinta, etc, etc.

I do like the course, however, as I said previously, there are newer layouts (Wolf / Paiute Resort & Wolf Creek in Mesquite) that have come onto the scene in the immediate area that I believe are a much more complete and exacting tests of golf. I believe someone said it previously that SC is a fine course but it's the twin aspects of "exlcusivity" and "original genesis" that have created much, if not all, of the buzz relating to the course.

You have to give Wynn and Fazio credit because they have certainly created a unique blending of golf and "wizard of oz" in "sin city."

Pat, if you analyze the collective nature of the holes you will find a good test of golf, but one that I find very hard to believe can be rated among the top 20-25 courses in the United States. I would place it in my personal listing somewhere between 50-75. How it got to top ten status with the GD listing is still a mystery to me -- maybe one of the GD panelists who voted highly for it then should explain if they follow GCA). I'm not saying by any stretch that SC is not a fine course, but the top 25 in the United States is a very competitive and lofty neigborhood and one I can't see SC occupying -- then or now.

[Paul Richards]

John:

To address your original questions.

Yes, this is Fazio's best work.

Yes, it is worth playing it - even if only once!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John to address your question--NO! not even close, or at least to what they are telling me exists near the fly-infested swamps of Atlantic City.

There are some really good comments here, especially Jerry K and John Gunning towards the end. (Tom, yours are valid too, but they only echo what everyone already knows--engineering marvel; Steve Wynn--nice guy, etc; Fazio's Best; family man; really nice guy; Boys and Girls Club of Hendersonville, etc. You know, stuff that has nothing to do with the substance.)

Is Shadow Creek Fazio's best?

I think what you really have to look at while at Shadow Creek is two things:

1.-Earthmovement--All which is really creative, try to look at the outlining areas where most don't really venture to see. I saw some pretty outrageous and mind-blowing pits, crevices and other natural-looking features there, the most spectacular being the carry over the par 3, 5th which is inspired, but not really that much like Pine Valley #5. In fact, when viewing most of the outskirts of the course, you get the idea of what was inspriing to Fazio, and while I don't condone earthmovement as such, it certainly was impressive. It would be hard to tell a machine created it, and I guess that is about the best comment Fazio will ever get from me.

2.-Repetition and Containment. There is an awful lot of repetition going on at Shadow Creek, mainly on or near the greens, which are some of the least interesting greens complexes I have ever seen for a Top 100 rated course. Was it me or was there literally 12 kideny-shaped or kidney-like green complexes, protected by a deep bunker(s) there that gave him the tougher pin placements?

The 17th hole is a mockery to the Game of Golf.

But as spoken by so many, Shadow Creek is designed for mass appeal and acceptance. How is anyone in their right mind going to say anything about the experience. (If I have to hear one more story of what star took a dump here, or how we are probably going to see Steve Wynn taking his daily walk--which of course never happens, I'm going to scream.) If you do go there, please look in Fazio's locker and see if the same set of plans, rolled-up and hats from Wade Hampton, Black Diamond Ranch and Caves Valley are in there. Talk about hokey, but this is exactly the stuff that makes the Fazcists go WOO-WOO.

Nothing like the most manufactured of experiences I always said! How else are you going to brag to others who have never played there? And can you imagine what the celebrities say, who have lockers in that wonderfully modest locker room but have never actually been there?

Only in Las Vegas--Yee Haa! Cha Ching!

[Paul Richards]

Tommy:

You mention Black Diamond as one of Fazio's best.  I agree.

However, what is so interesting to you besides that great stretch of quarry holes?

[TEPaul]

Michael Moore:

I believe I remember that post about Wynn's eye problems and how they arranged things on the course so that many of the backdrops to the holes lined up in various ways using the very distinct desert mountains which if you look at the aerial of SC aren't really that near the course but may appear more so when on the course. This was a clever compensation I believe for Wynn and his eye problem and also an usual physical juxtapostion.

I believe I'm correct in saying that post was from one of the primary shapers at SC who made a few posts on here about it maybe six months or so ago--can't remember his name now though.

I also remember him saying he'd never seen such an operation of machinery on a project. And I believe he said that machinery cored into the flat desert in many places up to 40 feet to produce the fill for the creation of the topography of SC as well as for lakes, streams, hills etc and whatever else they have out there.

Personally, although I've never seen the place except in photos, I feel about the same about it as I do about Las Vegas itself--just a very amazing fantasyland on a very grand scale. I suppose there's a very large degree of marvel factor in that but I frankly go for things that are more site natural. I just get the sensation in places like that if you could sort of peek behind the curtain you'd see the little old man (the wizard of Oz) pulling all the fantasy strings (if you know what I mean). But that kind of thing is what a guy like Wynn is one of the very best at. And you do have to hand it to Fazio because he certainly is an architect who can manage all the logisitics, problem solving and vision of grandiose projects like that.

But after all is said and done I suppose the inherent golf architecture of the place just has to stand on it's own sans all the marvel factor.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul,
It was either my horrible writing skills that mis-typed it, or you misread it. I have not been to Black Diamond Ranch. I was commenting that inside the locker are a set of rolled-up plans and HATS for BDR, WH, and CV. They are FAKE, or to better put it--Just like Shadow Creek; placed in there for Esthetic Value.

[Paul Richards]

Tommy:

I mis-read it.  Sorry.

The part I do agree with you is:

>Only in Las Vegas--Yee Haa! Cha Ching!

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