Harmony Club or timber clearing question

[Gary_Mahanay]

I noticed on the Harmony Club web site that timber clearing has begun.  They say that logging crews have started to cut timber from greens, tees, and fairways.  My question is why don't they take a D9 or D10 and clear everything at one time?  It seems that if a logging company clear cuts a fairway then somebody ( Doak's guys) will have to go back in there with a track hoe or ripper and get those stumps out?  Seems like a real time consuming and expensive process?  Can you make enough off of the timber to justify the expense of going back in and digging up the stumps?

[Harmony]

The development of the Harmony course is being done in phases..we're not going into D9 dozer work until we have fiscal committment from 100 mbrs; about 30 more to go.
But we wanted to "show" what the holes will look like to prospects....hence the need to take out the primary cut of timber.  Now, you can see contours and fairway vistas impossible to see before.
We left stumps in the ground to prevent top soil erosion.  Roots work much better than silt fences at this stage. The cost of grubbing was deferred.
We got the benefit of opening up views w/out the cost of erosion control.  We'll have to pay for it ultimately, but we weren't ready to risk losing top soil by grubbing it now.
Kent Hassell

[Gary_Mahanay]

     Thanks Kent.  I figured yall had a good reason.  Is the timber old growth or has there been logging operations there before?  How wide are they making the hole corridors at this time?  Good luck on the membership!

Gary  

[pdrake]

must be a really tough sell if they cannot drum up 100 members for a club in the south............I would be really nervous joining such a club

[rgkeller]

must be a really tough sell if they cannot drum up 100 members for a club in the south............I would be really nervous joining such a club

Those Georgia clubs can be a tough sell. Clifford Roberts had some early trouble with his club too.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Gary,

You are right about the stumps. I often get stumping bids, post timbering, that are higher than if the contractor simply took the trees out himself, stumps and all.  And, the Owner doesn't typically get much money from the operation, but he does get some.

However, its typical in wooded areas to timber like that - paper mills are big business in some areas.  And, many development permits require reusing the timber as the most environmentally sound way of using the resource, rather than clearing out some other forest.

From a sales perspective, I know that walking the routing in such rough condition doesn't sell much - when walking, you are constantly looking down to make sure you don't trip......well, at least I constantly look down to make sure I don't trip.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is a lot of competition in the area.

[pdrake]

I didn't realize we were coming out of a depression........maybe that had a little to do with the early problems of ANGC.

As far as Harmony Club, they will get 2nd tier members, if they ever get to the 100.  Why be a member in the lakes region of Georgia when you can go a little further and be in the Savannah/Beaufort/Hilton Head area.  And the golf is so much better.  I wish Harmony Club all the best, but they are probably DOA right now.

[Anthony_Nysse]

P Drake,
  Why are you so negative on almost every post? If you look back at your previous posts, you seem to just have negative things to say about everyone else's post, golf course porjects or comments. Why don't you talk up and let everyone know what your like so that we all can have a chance to give you negative comments about your posts. Why don't you give us a chance to pick you apart like you did to Mark Brown? You bring nothing positive to this dicussion group as of late.....

[rgkeller]

I didn't realize we were coming out of a depression........maybe that had a little to do with the early problems of ANGC.

As far as Harmony Club, they will get 2nd tier members, if they ever get to the 100.  Why be a member in the lakes region of Georgia when you can go a little further and be in the Savannah/Beaufort/Hilton Head area.  And the golf is so much better.  I wish Harmony Club all the best, but they are probably DOA right now.

Well, the summertime temperatures and bugs in the "low country" would be one reason. The HC could be a nice place to spend a couple of weeks in the summer for low country denizens and a nice early spring and late fall getaway for those in more northern climes. And Hilton Head golf is only better if one enjoys looking at housing tracts while playing.

[pdrake]

I guess the truth hurts.............posts being seen as negative is in the eye of the beholder.  I don't hold back opinions, positive or negative.

As far as Harmony Club, if the attraction was so great outside of GCA, they would have 400 members signed up.  This board has talked up this project from the beginning and it should be time to cut bait......the place isn't going to make it (with or without the 100 membership requirement).

A negative to HC is that the lakes region is not an attractive aleternative to the Savannah/Beaufort/Hilton Head area (as you see, I said AREA, not island........Long Cove is the only one worth a damn on the island, and that is questionable due to preset tee times and over 600 members for a 18 hole course).

[Harmony]

Mr. Drake,

Time to pull off the gloves and go at it.  Since you're entitled to your opinion, I won't attack you for saying whatever you wish.  I will however take this opportunity to weigh in on this forum w/ a long overdue statement about Harmony, Doak, and development of top quality golf courses...

Harmony was conceived to be as close an ideal club for a large percentage of followers of GCA as possible...by accident.  I never knew of GCA until Mike Young told me about it a couple of years ago when he and I were discussing my "vision" for Harmony.  Since then, I have been stunned by the parallels of ideals and characteristics I wanted for Harmony, and those articulated by the hundreds of posts I have read on this site.

There have been threads about Doak's top 10 nirvanna characteristics...we've got them all; threads about green to tee distances; how many short par 3s/4s/5s you should have; how many long par 3s/4s/5s you should have; pros and cons on dogleg lefts vs. rights; using caddies; water as hazard vs. visual elements; the value of walking; the absence of housing and cart paths; redan greens; skyline greens; firm and fast vs. soft and target oriented; even what constitutes neat looking logos.  The majority opinions on these issues are virtually all present in what Tom has designed for us.

Harmony has the "potential" to give the GCA player virtually all of what a large number of you value and hold dear.  And attracting the player who "gets it" has always been more important to me than the masses who don't appreciate what this site is all about.

We SHOULD have 400 members by now if everyone we talked to was as knowledgeable about great golf as the majority of posters on this site.  But reality is we have had to market to a lot of people who don't "get it".  

There are very few examples of great courses getting built that don't have either a resort or real estate development hook.  We're bold enough to try it.  It may not fly, but I am not embarrased for making the effort.  

Tom has great integrity and is concerned about the ethics of "selling" a project.  But as was posted before, nothing happens until someone sells something...an idea, a vision, a proposal...and we are trying to sell anyone who we can touch that Harmony can be as good a golf experience as you can find...anywhere. Top quality work in golf architecture and selling the project by all involved is a must do if any project is to succeed...unless you're drawing for Trump.

For every player who gets gnats, mosquitoes, totally flat or artificially humped up courses in the coastal areas, we have a nice alternative.  I would dispute that the golf is so much better in that area...just my personal opinion Mr. Drake.

But thanks for giving us your endorsement...We'll grind away for a while and see if a few more brave souls will come forward and help make Harmony happen.  If we do, mark it down right now...this course will find acclaim and be highly regarded by those who play it...and I hope a bunch of GCA posters will get that chance.
Thanks to all for tolerating my vent.

[John_Cullum]

These last few years have been tough to sell anything with a serious price tag. If Harmony can hang on until the good times roll, they'll have good success. I know P drake is high on Secession. I believe it all but folded up in the early 90's and today, its a good equity investment.

[Bill_McBride]

Kent, enjoyed meeting you at Cuscowilla and wish you all the best with your dream course.  "If you build it, they will come!"  -- Field of Dreams.  Hopefully as the economy continues to improve, your membership will grow.

[SJ_McCarthy]

So, is it Long Cove fault that it has built a stong, active, golfing membership? So, that takes away from the golf course cause YOU can't play it? I'd rather have an active membership than a membership that doesnt enjoy their course.

Actually, it is LC's fault if indeed they have 600 members on an 18 hole course, if in fact they are 600 "active" members, I would call BS on the regime running it if I were a full time member trying to play.  There is a large delta between an "active membership" and an unfortunate over subscription.  At the end of the day, if you have low dues or no assesments due to high volume of members, yet cant PLAY it, something is wrong in that equation no?

[Mike_Young]

Kent,
Aren't you just tickled to death I told you about this site?
Mike

[SPDB]

Kent - Best of luck.

Don't bother telling PD about the golf course, it doesn't matter to him. Just tell him its limited to 60 members and his estimation of the club (course?) will change accordingly.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mr. Hassell,
  I wish you the best of luck in providing a golf course that ideal in your mind.(and happens to be ideal in many others on this site) It is your dream and I hope to see it someday.

Mr. Drake,
  Because of my profession and having to be careful in what I say, I'm going to walk away from this one. I understand that you're entitled to your opinion, but it just seems as though you're tearing everything apart lately, especially another man's dream.

[pdrake]

"We'll grind away for a while and see if a few more brave souls will come forward and help make Harmony happen"................wow, if that is not a case for joining...........is that the hard sell???  I really hope you get the 100 members you need, more golf is always good (especially on the way to Augusta).  I do prefer the Old Sandwich model.........build it and do not care how many members join.  

As far as Secession, I would say it isn't the only club to have problems (and it is an overwhelming success right now).  

And I really love low country golf for the gnats and mosquitoes............even though I have played over 50 rounds in all times of the year in the low country and still have yet to be bitten by anything other than a stiff drink.

I will let the Secession members counter your "artificial hump" insult....................I am only a proud guest!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Kent,

When I was looking at different models for a project that did not happen, I met one developer who hopefully will inspire you. On September 10, 2001 he had something like 75 members. The world changed the next day, and he was sure that he was going to go under. Well the next Spring, people started to settle in to the new world and they decided to put their money into hard assets - real estate and what the hey we might as well play golf at the attached club too. He sold out in August 2002. I know you don't have real estate, but sometimes things can turn for strange reasons.

Good luck.

P Drake,

You actually believe that Old Sandwich doesn't care how many people join. That is silly. I know, I know, it is big money behind the project, and that is why they do care. Members validate the club.

[Harmony]

Sorry you missed the dripping sarcasm attached to my "grind away..." comment.
And you must be blessed w/ sweat glands that exude Avon Skin So Soft if you've never been bitten by a no see 'um.
As to Secession...I have felt for a long time that their experience and focus are commendable...and whether or not they have artificial humps I still think they have a great club.  As has been stated in my web site...There are great courses and great clubs, but very few that are both.  I just think a majority of low country courses have to deal w/ poor drainage and wetlands issues by making their courses look like a mogul run...not what I perceive a majority of g.c.a. like to see.  We are blessed w/ ANGC type topography and don't have to worry about bugs...let's see if there are any other parallels to them that develop!

[pdrake]

I can say with 100% certainty, the people behind OSGC could care less whether another member joined.  That is not silly, those are the facts.  They are not in the "we need 100 members" or "we need 300 members" game.  They will get their members (honestly the place isn't that expensive to join).  They will do it the old fashioned way, through other members........no advertising on GCA, no newspaper adds, no telephone numbers or e-mail addresses on the internet.  They did it right, it is too bad more do not follow the model.

[Top100Guru]

The battle you are faced with Kent is that "most" of the "great membership canidates" for a vision like the Harmony Club are already members at great places (in your area) like The Honors Course, Secession, Cuscowilla, Wade Hampton, etc.and these are all clubs that you have to compete with in terms of "great canidates".....I do believe that this project will get done and that it will truly be a first class "golf only" destination, it is just likely to be a slow road to success, like many of the great clubs aformentioned here.

Good Luck, I know with Nat Hardwick in your camp you won't go wrong.

[RJ_Daley]

I have followed this thread and after seeing the tone by P Drake, can't help but jump in.  

Mr. Drake, I don't know who you are or if you have a competing project or financial interest dog in the fight, but your negativity is disheartening.  What do you think your posts of negative comments on Mr Hassell's vision are going to accomplish.  Are you going to save some wealthy fellow from spending his money by buying into Hassell's vision?  Like, do the people in the market strata that Harmony Club is obviously seeking NEED your cold shower?

I can very much sympathise with Mr. Hassell.  In 1992-3, I myself had a golf course and home site project go down to market forces.  I learned a bit from it.  During that time period, I took a few real estate sales licensing courses just to help me along in uderstanding more about that aspect of the project.  One basic thing I learned was, don't speak ill of the competition because it cheapens you.  That was a fundumental ethical principle that was taught in that class from day one.  I believe it.  As I said, I don't know Mr Drake, if you are actual competition in fact, or simply a prestige monger of a competing club.  I don't know how many more times you have to mention something about a mid-way point on your way to Augusta (like you go there to play all the time -- or maybe you do).  But, it is sort of a skimpy vail of vanity/envy that you are revealing from what I can interpret from your posts.  

Why not wait to discuss the merits of the GOLF COURSE when it is actually BUILT!!!   Let caveat emptor be the guiding force for the prospective membership subscribers.  I'm just betting none of them are stupid enough to part with that much money, if the don't want to and I doubt they would be snookered into the subscription.  

BTW, I have the Harmony folder offered to us at Cuscowilla, and went out there on my own after playing with Lou at Reynolds.  Unfortunately the gate was locked and I couldn't see much.  I took as much of a look at surrounds from the trailer park north of the property looking across the inlet.  It looks like a fine site, and I hardly think Doak will screw it up.  But, let's at least wait and see the quality after it is a reality and let the marketing happen without all the naysaying by apparently one fellow.

Disclaimer:  I don't know any of these guys, and I don't pretend to know their true motives, and I hope I have interpreted Mr Drake's situation and motives completely wrong.  I'll take the heat if he has a reply, and even appologise, IF I have some of this completely wrong or out of context.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Thanks Mr. Daley-I was beginning to wondering if I was the only one to view Mr. Drake's comments as so. We need to remember, that in one way, shape or form, we are all on the same side here and what Mr. Hassell is trying to do and will succeed at, is building a true golf course with a golfing membership that will hopefully be viewer highly on the nationl level....what more sould you ask for?