[Matt_Ward]

Sebonac:

I had the pleasure in playing The Bridge last fall and yes, as others have mentioned, I really did enjoy the course. I believe The Bridge is more than just beautiful views (which it has!) and there are numerous instances of strategic holes throughout the round for all types of players.

What's amazing is that many people did venture forth an opinion of certain aspects of the course only from photographs. I believe the only defintive to analyze a course is by playing it. Clearly, if you play a course more than once you will likely be able discern other variables that you missed from just one visit.

I see The Bridge as one of the finest courses ever designed by Rees Jones. I guess in stating that it makes me biased in the minds of some people. I've played just about all of the top LI courses (exceptions being Friar's Head and Easthampton) and I would rate The Bridge among my personal top five along with SH, NGLA, Garden City GC, and Bethpage Black.

Be most interested in hearing your comments after you've played it.

[brad_miller]

Matt, does Maidstone as a par 70 in the wind get your heart pounding?? It does mine, even as a par 72! Add this to your list and more will listen.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

If you want to bump down par at Miadstone I can do the same at The Bridge -- plus other courses, both on and off the Island. I rate / review courses as they play.

You say, "Add this (Maidstone) to your list and more will listen." To be toally frank -- I don't really care whether others do listen or not. I just stated my opinion on my personal five favorites on the Island and I truly believe The Bridge is one of them.

Maidstone, in my opinion, has a few holes of note (i.e. especially the 9th -- wow!) but benefits immeasurably because of its geographic location (the Hamptons) and close proximity to SH and NGLA. When people say -- well, what if the winds blows "x" amount of mph -- I counter that by saying that the individual holes when analyzed collectively will show weaknesses both at the start and end of the round. When people start saying one must add wind into the equation it really becomes a situation of trying to bolster ones case with an outside agency. The greatness of SH and NGLA do not need the support of wind to be great courses -- they are great period. They become even more demanding with its presence.

Is Maidstone a good course -- yes, I concede that. Is it a course that should be rated 33rd by GolfWeek in its "classic listing" and ahead of such other notable metro NY/NJ area courses such as Winged Foot / East, Baltusrol / Lower, Hollywood, and Ridgewood (East & West), Creek Club, Piping Rock and Baltusrol / Upper???

Or Maidstone's rating from GD (01-02 100 Greatest listing) which has it as the 42nd best course in the country and ahead of these area courses:

Fisher's Island
Somerset Hills
Bethpage Black
Plainfield
Stanwich Club

HELLO -- some thing is clearly amiss here in my mind!

Brad, have you played The Bridge? If so -- please provide your thoughts / comments. If not -- play the course and see how it stacks up against Maidstone and all the others. Thanks!

[corey miller]

Matt- It seems all courses on the East End probably benefit to the proximity to NGLA,SH.  This includes the Bridge and Atlantic both of which i have never played.  In fact, from your posts I thought (correct me) that you liked Olde Kinderhook better than Atlantic which are both Rees courses and I believe Atlantic generally ranked higher maybe because of this proximity.

You rate courses a little differently than others on this site which is fine because you are consistent and always state your views.  Would love for you to contrast Maidstone vs Stanwich.  I do believe if I had 20 rounds to play that 19 would be at maidstone.

[Matt_Ward]

Corey:

Good point about your comparison to Stanwich v. Maidstone. I know many players who would opt the same way. I just think Stanwich has a stronger laundry list of holes, although I do concede a number of the greens at the Greenwich club are overly severe. Maidstone relies on the intensity and variety of the oceanside winds to provide its vexing qualities. But, there are more than few holes at Maidstone that are just plain vanilla and lacking any real substance without the wind. Let's just say neither Stanwich nor Maidstone would crack my personal top 100 courses.

Does the Hampton locale benefit Atlantic. and the rest located there? Sure it does and I think it's rather unfortunate that Olde Kinderhook gets left behind because it happens to be just south of Albany.

But I believe Olde Kinderhook has got plenty of octane in its tank / layout and if / when more people play it they will know Olde Kinderhook clearly has the potential to be among the top ten courses in the Empire State. I cannot fathom how Atlantic maintains its position as one of the 100 greatest courses in the USA (GD listing 01-02). The course has its moments but the interplay of man's hand (intrusive containment mounding) just wreaks of artificial elements. The land site is also at best average in my opinion. I have to add that Rees Jones has told me the changes were made at Atlantic and since I have not been back for quite some time it will be interesting to see if they have dramatically improved the course.

Hope this helps ...

[brad_miller]

Matt, I just believe you underate Maidstone, I count at least 4 "world class" holes #'s 8,9,10 and 14 maybe others will add one or two more. I agree with SH, NGLA, GCGC, and would like to see the Black one more time, its been a long time. Based on this I going to have huge expectations when and if I'am lucky enough to play The Bridge. My comments were more about Maidstone (pro) than The Bridge. I can't see why anyone within 3 hours of Long Island's east end would not want all the new courses to be great.

As to the others, Fisher's is world class and I would rank it higher than Maidstone, the others I have not yet played but Stanwich, I'd play 20 of 20 at Maidstone without even thinking, there isn't one world class hole on that property, not that its not a "fine test"  But then again, I will admit a bais towards the "links feel and F&F play using the ground"

[TEPaul]

To the list of really good holes at Maidstone I would add #1 #2, #6!, #7!,#17!!, #18. Some of those holes shine on the strength of their greens and green-ends most of which is probably about 85% of the architecture on those holes!! The remainder of those holes are natural landform and that's just fine by me--better actually than some of the other courses mentioned here in comparison that are "designed up" from tee through green.

Without the wind Maidstone may be a much easier course to score on than some of the others mentioned without wind, but so what? I don't hold that kind of "variability" against Maidstone overall--the wind was obviously not lost as a central factor to the architects who designed the course.

Some knowlegeable players think Maidstone might be a bit low on the "conditioning" scale but frankly I hope that never changes--I think that's part of its charm! Maidstone is a bit like a throwback in time the way it is--it's got character because to that--it's got class--it just is what it is and always has been!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Were'd Sebonac go?

[J_Olsen (Guest)]

Matt,

Surely you jest....Stanwich better than Maidstone? Are you sure you played the right Maidstone...with the sand dunes? Easthampton? And, as for the Bridge, once again Rees has failed on a good site. Nobody in architecture has gotten as much access to great property that he has squandered as Rees has. The most remarkable aspect of this golf course is that the course is so totally separate from the surrounding property. It feels like the playing areas are identical to what they would be even if the sandy, scrubby terrain was instead of a totally different nature. I don't know how one can ignore the environment and still get high marks. The Bridge was built to show you the view, and it does so, again, and again, and again....I had enough of the view after seeing the range. Like  most of Rees Jones's courses that I have played, this course isn't terrible, it is just so much less than it might have been.

Don't be fooled by the price tag. Just because Cisco used to cost 20 times what it does now doesn't mean it was ever worth it!

[TEPaul]

J. Olsen:

Matt's not jesting! He's already stated many times that he feels The Bridge is in the top five courses on the Island!

Just keep in mind, that golf and its architecture is a great big game and there's room in it for everyone!

[Guest]

I had the pleasure of playing the Bridge and maidstone on the same day a few weeks ago. There is no compairison. If I had fifty rounds at the two, it would be fifty for maidstone, 0 for the Bridge. The holes at the bridge blend seemlessly into the nether regions of my mind. They are so similar and boring. I heard a story from a caddie who had looped for Rees. The caddie asked Rees to explain the strategy of every tee ball. Rees said hit it down the middle. Lots of strategy, there.

There is not one thing innovative about the Bridge. The par four hole (4 or 5?) with the redan like green is the best of the bunch, which even Rees acknowledges. It seems he know good stuff when he sees it, but is incapable of breaking out of his mold and actually doing it more than once a course.

If your a card and pencil player, the challenge of the Bridge might appeal, but a player who perfers match play would cleary choose to stand on the seveteenth tee at Maidstone, one down with a driver in his hand, going for the green. It does not get any better than that.

[Tim Weiman]

Corey Miller:

You are wrong to chose Maidstone over Stanwich 19 out of 20 times.

Brad Miller is correct with his 20 for 20 figure.

[J_Olsen (Guest)]

Matt,

Does the routing at the Bridge have any purpose other than showing one the view? The course has always been intended as a walking course, but it is virtually unwalkable. In a world where Doak, Hanse, C&C are creating courses that are in tune with their environment, and have wonderful natural shapes..we are greeted by another set of Rees' pieces....M & M shaped bunkers that are so bland and uninteresting...where is the strategy on this course?

[TEPaul]

Guest:

I recognize that surely anyone has the perfect right to prefer any golf course they want to but your comparison of The Bridge and Maidstone is marvelous in supporting why you prefer one over the other.

Most of these contributors on here only ask that if you show a preference, maybe even a bias that you support it well with examples and the reasons for them!

Certainly not to say that you're right and Matt Ward is wrong, but you gave some reasons and why that many of us agree with!

Good show! Why don't you just stick around and identify yourself--we need more people like you and would love to know who you are!

[Matt_Ward]

J Olsen:

Please do not insult my intelligence in knowing if I played the right Maidstone.

I've played the course enough times to know what I saw and if we have different opinions so be it.

Your point about being unwalkable -- excuse me -- but if you are in decent shape it can be done.

The Bridge encompasses a wide diversity of holes that make you play real shots -- not quirky ones or ones to plain vanilla holes -- which Maidstone has a good number of. Rees Jones has evolved from his earlier designs and The Bridge, Olde Kinderhook and Nantucket (to a lesser extent) show this movement in his work.

Since you are conversant on golf on the Island ( ) it would help my "commoner" understanding of golf for you to please rank your top ten in order. Thanks.

Dear Guest:

I don't need 20-30 mph winds to make a course interesting as Maidstone does. The Bridge has plenty of built-in strategy and I've posted this info before so I'm not going to waste space and time doing a repeat. Let's just say we agree to disagree.

Look, some people like, change that, prefer the "classical" style of architecture -- whatever that means because each person has their own "take" on that defintion. I take a very pragmatic position regarding modern course development. Some people have this elitist attitude that anything modern is really a waste of their time. It would help me greatly if you could point out a few modern courses (within the last ten years) you do favor and why.

Yes, I do like The Bridge very much and believe Rees did a wonderful job in crafting holes that keep you on your toes throughout the round. You must position your shots on nearly every hole -- it's more than just a nice view!

I don't see Maidstone as a top 100 course in the USA and I don't see people saying I'm wrong about other courses I listed with the exception of Stanwich. As I said before I would not have either Maidstone or Stanwich in my personal top 100.

[brad_miller]

Matt, thank you for your thoughts and passion. You do stick to your guns even under flack attack. We may disagree about Maidstone and I sure hope I someday have the chance to see what is so special about The Bridge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Guest,

It does get better than that !

Standing on the 17th tee all even or one up, with driver in hand, is better than being one down.

J Olson,

I'm not so sure it's fair to compare architects who only take on select sites to architects who take on all sites.

I'm not so sure that those people who sold Cisco when it was at twenty times what it is today didn't think it was worth it.


Corey,

I'm with Brad and Tim, I'd opt for Maidstone 20 out of 20, not necessarily because Maidstone is so great, but because the greens at Stanwich are so severe that the element of fun is eliminated.  Having a four foot birdie putt that sits above and at an angle to the cup, one shouldn't be concerned with three or four putting.  The fun of Maidstone combined with the over the top greens at Stanwich determined my choice, and, if the wind blows, that's the icing on the cake.
Maidstone is sporty and fun to play, Stanwich is a constant struggle.

TEPaul,

I don't see some of the holes you see as being that great.
# 1, #17, # 18, nice holes, but great ?

I've also played Maidstone when even the members, who belong to other clubs, complained about the shaggy fairways

Maidstone enjoys a pretty strong piece of property, and probably couldn't be built today due to environmental issues.
How do you compare courses built with no constraints to todays courses built with unending constraints ?

Guest,

Now we're taking hearsay from a caddy as gospel.
Seems like the advice to hit it down the middle is pretty good advice, especially if you want to play a round of golf and not engage in a four hour question and answer session with your caddy.  As Tiger Woods said, following a question about his caddy Timmons, at NGLA, he doesn't like a caddy to talk to him, unless he asks the caddy a question.  Now Rees is obligated to engage in dialogue or debate with his caddy ??
Nah, there's no bias here.

I can't speak about The Bridge or Friar's Head since I haven't played either one.  But, I'm hoping to play both this summer.

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I haven't seen The Bridge and will stay out of that one until I do.

But, I'm really puzzled by your reference to wind on seaside courses as an "outside agency".  The wind plays as an important factor at most seaside courses I know.  Isn't it really something fundamental to what such courses are all about?

It's true that occasionally you get calm pleasant days.  For example, the 2000 Irish Open at Ballybunion incredibly had four such days.  But, if that doesn't happen very often, how important is it to evaluating the architectural merits of such courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Good question -- here's my response.

I rate courses as they are -- I don't give brownie points because of the wind. Clearly, on seaside courses it's a factor but I go by the imbued qualities the hole has -- pure and simple.

When someone says "x" course is really something because the wind blew 20-30 mph or more -- my answer is simple -- just about any course will play tough when wind is blowing at a top speed.

SH and NGLA don't need heavy wind to play great. They are imbued with superb architectural features through and through. I don't see Maidstone in that same light and believe it's gotten a nice ride because it's so close to the two super heavyweights on the east end. Just my opinion.

P.S. When I see Maidstone ahead of Plainfield, Bethpage Black, Somerset Hill and Fisher's Island (see GD ratings 01-02) I just shake my head in utter disbelief. Hope this helps ...

[Guest#2]

Matt Ward

It apppears that you are constantly making the distinction between judging architects rather than their golf courses.  At least that is what is inferred from your comment that it's not fair to compare architects who are selective in their sites and those that aren't.

If you want to judge the work of the architect, then so be it.  But lets not confuse your thoughts on whether the architect did a good job with what it had to work with, both from site and permitting perspectives, with the golf course itself as a finished golf course.  Because at the end of the day, it's the golf course itself that people care about!

[windy wonder]

A windy site has to be one of the elements of THE IDEAL COURSE, that and sandy soil. To look at a property and not factor in "normal wind coditions" is not to have looked.

[J_Olsen (Guest)]

Matt,

Sorry, I was being a bit humorous there about having played the right maidstone, no insult intended. As for my top 10 on Long Island...

1. shinnecock
2. national
3. fisher's island (if that counts)
4. friar's head (assuming that what i saw last fall is still there!)
5. garden city
6. maidstone
7. creek
8. piping rock
9. deepdale
10. bridge

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You sure don't have to agree with me about Maidstone for me to maintain my feelings about some of it's holes. I didn't even say they were great anyway, whatever that means, I said they were really good holes, but some are great for reasons not like many other sometimes considered "great holes".

#1 is unique to me and I was one of those that said like many have before me when standing on the first tee at Maidstone for the first time; "Where's the golf course?" I call that hole "European amorphous", no real aiming points or points of reference except a few like the green which is basically the wrong line anyway. It's a birdie hole, so what? and I love it because of where it is so close to and above the road and the bunkering left front. #18 is the same thing, part of the same open "European amorphous" landform and that green itself is one of the true best match play greens in the world.

If you don't like #17 Maidstone, then just don't talk to me about it! It's one of my very favorite short par 4s in the world and in high quality match play golf it's basically a birdie hole all the way--so what? To make birdie and in that section of the routing (#17) is often essential. It's the most misunderstood hole around in how exactly to hit that tee shot if you're trying to be aggressive which one side or the other generally is--it will reward three well thought out shots quite easily but at the other end of the spectrum it will take a well struck but less than really well thought out tee shot right out of the equation and often right out of the match!

#17 is short but tricky and it's a true star in my opinion! Perry Maxwell green too and the right side of the putting surface is a mere 7 steps from the road!

If you don't appreciate it that's fine--but I admire it more every time I see it--particularly knowing it mostly makes you want to make 3 and need to make 3 although often in trying you can easily make X!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

J Olson,

Deepdale ??  A doglegged Stanwich ?
I like Wilson, but, Deepdale ?

How do you compare the strategic merits of a golf course that you've never played, to others that you have played ?

Many if not most, including myself, have high hopes for Friar's Head, but how do you rate a golf course that hasn't been played ?

Is that what the guest # 2 and Matt Ward were discussing, rating the architect ?

I think it is unfair to Friar's Head.

Let's play it, then evaluate and rank it, rather than evaluate and rank it, and then play it.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Pat,

Funny description of Deepdale...and I agree with you about your comment that we should play first and discuss later. As probably the most  experienced person on the site with respect to Long Island, what is your top 10 courses you have played?

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