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Tommy_Naccarato

News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« on: December 01, 2004, 05:15:50 AM »
If this is not ground breaking, then it certainly has to have some sort of impact--one can only hope.

It would seem as if the course owners get it.

Go to:

www.geoffshackelford.com

Fourth article down.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 05:16:12 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

TEPaul

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2004, 08:00:11 AM »
A very good thing? Who's left to defend the state of the distance situation today?

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2004, 08:33:46 AM »
Quote
by making their businesses more profitable, more efficient, better managed and more stable.

I knew there was something I wouldn't like.

Quote
Further, the NGCOA agrees that the purpose of the equipment rules is to protect golf's best traditions, to prevent over-reliance on technological advances rather than skill, and to ensure that skill is the dominant element of success throughout the game

How many of these "long ball" hitters are winning events?
Following this logic one could surmise that Vejay's practice regiment had nothong to do with his 11 million dollar season.

Here's an interesting one...
Quote
The consequential lengthening and widening of courses will also have a negative effect on increasingly important environmental and ecological issues
Way to go guys! Turn the E issue around to your way of thinking. for what? Oh yeah, to be more profitable.

Quote
Older courses, many of which have been brilliantly designed, are being rendered powerless to challenge the modern power hitter and no longer play as designed.
For who? The modern POWER HITTER. Now there's a demographic.

Quote
Owners and operators of older courses are burdened with increased liability costs as a result.
Isn't the individual responsible for their actions?

I'll stop there, but, in the Dawson article, above this one, name calling and mis-leading factors, such as companies in the golf business's bottomline, don't follow any protocol I've ever seen.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2004, 08:40:35 AM »
Adam, you're missing the point. If a conservative business approach reveals that the distance issue has become a liability, then it's now part of mainstream debate and not just a fringe group of architecture-fawning classicists who are making the case.

As for liability - no, it's never just the individual owner's or player's responsibility if a property is badly designed and doesn't conform to basic standards of safety. Build a golf hole today with only 240-yard turn points and you'll see drives flying through to the next fairway. Or build holes that are only 200-feet across from centerline of one hole to centerline of the next and you well get pelted from adjoining fairways. Those are now considered design flaws and evidence of the architect's incompetence iin providing a safe environment. Many older courses, esp, with real estate or limited space, can't widen out. And building new courses requires more land for these issues of lateral playing surface than used to be the case.

I take your point to be that these are not true "environmentalist" agendas. You are correct. But they reflect the view that the distance issue is now effecting everyone. It's separate from the claim that the longer ball is "de-skilling" golf or that longer hitters are somehow rewarded and winning more often.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 08:43:19 AM by Brad Klein »

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2004, 08:49:22 AM »
 Brad, How much of this point I'm missing, is a result of our litigious society?

Are these older, poorly designed courses grandfathered from liabilty? TOC? Pacific Grove?

Whatever happened to assumption of risk? Golf is a sport where there are many ways to be injured, or killed, while golfing.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 08:53:45 AM by Adam Clayman »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2004, 09:04:13 AM »
Adam, I know exactly what you mean about the impact of our litigious society and I share some of that concern. But that's also the buysiness climate the NGCOA works in. Besides, some of the evolution of risk also comes from the fact that the game has continued to change and distances that were manageable are incrementally more dangerous. The risks are a little different now. It would be very intertesting to see how so few people get hit at St. Andrews. I think that design is ingenious in terms of separation, as well as in the understanding people bring when they play there. But I don't see why the NGCOA argument should be dismissed for somehow not being pure enough, esp. wth respect to the land required by new courses.

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2004, 09:18:24 AM »
One reason, or benefit of dismissing their argument is that people won't get into the golf business for business reasons.
That's what happened from about 1983 on, and most of the resultant designs were less than inspirational.

Golf course construction won't decrease because the ball goes too far. Every and  I mean every customer, I see golf, is completely enamored with hitting it, or watching it, go long.

Perhaps the raising of the liability bar (cost of entry) willl ensure that the building of golf courses in the future, are done by those with a passion for the game, and a vision for the sport. The fact that most of these potential locales are not, and will not be, within reasonable driving distances of major metropolitan areas, anytime soon, should have absolutely nothing to do with building quality GCA. Tasmania, New Zealand, Yellowstone, Bandon, Mullen, and even La Mesilla are but a few i.e.'s.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 09:40:29 AM by Adam Clayman »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2004, 09:31:38 AM »
Is it just me, or does anyone else think Geoff posted that as a joke?  He does note that "It is not yet on their web site, but surely will be" and the line about "older courses, many of which are brilliantly designed" sounds like Geoff writing, not some PR guy for a trade association.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2004, 09:41:38 AM »
I'm so gullable, Jeff. I even thought those Ernie E-mails were authentic.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2004, 10:08:33 AM »
 Adam,

1) If, as owners, we don't better manage "the business" of our operations, which includes efficiency and profit (or for most of us "break even"), daily fee and small, dare I say humble, private and semi-private clubs will fall by the wayside to become residential development.  Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against competition or even seeing some courses close, but the competition should be based on competitive factors, service, design, client/price matching etc.  The alternative is less supply, greater demand, higher price for the daily fee player and small club member.  The issue for most NGCOA members is not Vijay, its the 40 year-old big stick, who can lift one out of the rough with regularity, beating the older portion, vocal base, of the membership.

2) The E factor - I agree with you. Total bunk.  Everyone just ordered their fert & chem for next year and acreage = cost.  The Augusta green standard is one of the toughest issues to overcome day to day.

3) Older courses that have to be maintained for all of the membership are hard to hold an open club event on.  The set up for the third flight is nothing like what the ideal set up for the first flight should be and only the championship flight ends up with their name on the trophy in the clubhouse at most clubs.  In addition in the past twenty years all those front green carry hazards have only made this worse.

4) You have pinpointed the greatest problem in today's social and business setting.  The fact of the matter is although the individual should be responsible, the bulk of individuals spend more time and effort seeking to divert blame and excuses rather than stepping up to the plate for their actions.  At the higher priced clubs, some, not even close to all, of that element is eliminated. These clubs require a very tight and active membership board made up of "stand up guys".  In the middle of the golfing clientele bell curve, where most NGCOA members make a living, very few players take any responsibility for anything.  I can't tell you how often I hear a group say, "You need more rangers because that group ahead won't let us play through."  The first question I always ask is; "How did you approach them to let them know you'd like to go through?"   Top two answers: "We hit into them on (pick a hole) to give them the message." or "We didn't, but we knew they'd be slow on the first tee."  When I drive up to the group ahead and ask if the group behind could play through, top two answers: "Those guys are jerks they've been hitting into us all day, even on the greens." or "Sure, I didn't realize they wanted through."  The moral of the story is that if you just ask politely to play through, you get through and any body can do it.

Liability – There was a time when if you hit your ball into the parking lot and hit a car you went and left a note under the wiper, apologized and asked the bill be forwarded to you.  Today there’s a giggle followed by a remark about how the lot is to close to the hole.  The car owner comes in to the shop, and doesn’t really care about who is legally responsible and will sue you if you don’t take care of it because they have a $1000 deductible.  When the legal aspect comes up those insurance guys get touchy and jack your rates.  Now let’s consider what happens when you have a hole along a road with moving traffic.  Forget the fact that when the course was built it was a cow path or two- track – today it’s a busy road.  Real world - player hits ball, ball hits car, car goes in ditch, everybody gets sued, course gets off, still has legal bill, ball net goes up, player hits ball, ball hits car, car goes in ditch or hits another car, golf course gets sued and loses this time because they put up a net to address a known problem and loses, insurance company pays for permanent post nasal drip of driver, premiums go up.  The romance of the old clubs and the experience makes up for the stray lost ball plus folks are usually on their best behavior.  Shouldn't they always?

And where did all those trees come from between holes on the old courses that used to open and playable?  In 1965 Mrs. Havecamp, her husband was on the greens committee for years, got hit in three fairway by a tee shot off two.  Solution, plant a row ugly pines between the fairways, and this is the line I hate most, for protection.  Never mind that the guy on two should have been responsible and waited to hit, he’s got to play 18 in 2:45 or his day is just ruined.  Ever wonder why the great proliferation of the double fairway never came to pass?  Because the bulk of the players are not considerate or responsible to, quoting St. Andrews, “allow the inward group its due consideration”.

General rant-

To do the rounds needed to break even, let alone profitable, a group of players must be appeased that lack the responsibility levels so integral to the game they profess to play.  The only game in the world where a player penalizes himself and must deal with the result of his actions, rather a bad lie, fried egg in bunker, whatever…  Take a look at those players that play “everything lateral” and “bump ‘em in the fairway”; follow them around for a day and you’ll see the problems with golf and its future.  From the one minute pre shot to the three minute four side put read to the un-repaired ball mark to the 24 beer five hour round, to green wet fairways and greens.  We all hate this stuff, but it is what they, the bulk of our customers, have been taught on Saturday and Sunday for years.  Golf, the greater good, must re-train the players.  It “the revolution” must begin with the club operators and greens committees, goes to the shop staff, must be embraced by the PGA and USGA (require the networks to show the caddies repair ball marks, rake bunkers, and replace divots: “for the good of the game”),  these parties are the parents of the game and as such we must make up for the lackluster parenting, both on the course and off,  that’s been going on for years.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2004, 10:30:20 AM »
Brauer, Adam - it's real. I got it yesterday direct from NCGOA.

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2004, 10:45:51 AM »
Jim- Wonderful rant. The first thing that came to my mind  reading your #1, was...The thought of how competitive you can expect to be, when governments are your competition?
Not exactly a level playing field, is it?

I've seen the 8100 yarder, it's nothing grotesque, it's not the monster people are making it out to be. Maybe Mr. Phelps is largely responsible for that? But, the hundreds of homes that the course was built to help sell is certainly making someone a profit. Separating the two profits (or losses) is just some smart accountants job.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2004, 11:27:24 AM »
Adam,
Personally, I have no problem with the Muni system.  It provides the bargain shopper a placce to go.  Like most gov't agencies it is used and abused by the general public and very rarely do folks get all they pay for if they add their tax to their green fee relative to conditioning.  There will of course always be exceptions.  I don't think it would be to hard to match up against the service levels i've seen at most munis.  There will of course always be exceptions, but generally I would bet that areas where the schools are referenced as public rather than community lack some level of service and hospitality.  You get the Secretary of State office level of service and the course gets used like the roads.

University courses get me a little.  I imagine just what we could do with the portion of our taxes that end up at the University level or dream of what we could do with a property tax refund.  They don't compete with us to directly either.

8100 yards makes sense.  Its sad to say, but if you want the shot values relative to club selection of the good ole days its gotta happen. The bad news is the scalabilty factor that goes with that relative to width and hazard sizing makes it cost prohibitive and I think a lot of strategy is lost in "long" design.  When it comes to the housing, I always figured folks would rather live at a great golf community than on an average or compromised course. developers have to remember that they get paid once for the land but long term on the golf. The old axiom, "Want a burger? Kill the cow.  But don't complain about the goat's milk and the funny cheese."  I am an accountant, but I enrolled in a  twelve step program to get over it and appreciate the beauty and passion in the world.  Now I'm in golf!

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2004, 11:42:10 AM »
Quote
by making their businesses more profitable, more efficient, better managed and more stable.

I knew there was something I wouldn't like.

Adam, What? A man isn't allowed to make a profit for owning and maintaining a golf course? Come on Adam. I couldn't disagree more with you on this.

Quote
Further, the NGCOA agrees that the purpose of the equipment rules is to protect golf's best traditions, to prevent over-reliance on technological advances rather than skill, and to ensure that skill is the dominant element of success throughout the game

How many of these "long ball" hitters are winning events?
Following this logic one could surmise that Vejay's practice regiment had nothong to do with his 11 million dollar season.

Adam, Adam, Adam.....How many of them are obsoleting courses? Your spending too much time in the land of enchantment. Its affecting your ability to reality! ;)

Here's an interesting one...
Quote
The consequential lengthening and widening of courses will also have a negative effect on increasingly important environmental and ecological issues
Way to go guys! Turn the E issue around to your way of thinking. for what? Oh yeah, to be more profitable.

This statement actually made a lot of sense to me. What's wrong with protecting beautiful environments on golf courses? Rustic Canyon and Friar's Head have changed my thinking regarding the environment and ecology--both are spectacular and beautiful golf courses that embrace nature. I love every inch of them.  It would seem that the NGCOA sees that the beauty of each and every golf site should be respected too. Adam, for years, golf courses used very harmful chemicals, and the day came for them to pay the piper. THANK GOD!  It also makes the element of fast and firm that much more of a reality.

Quote
Older courses, many of which have been brilliantly designed, are being rendered powerless to challenge the modern power hitter and no longer play as designed.
For who? The modern POWER HITTER. Now there's a demographic.

Adam, Where have you been in regards to what is happening to the Great classic courses of this game? Pull your head out of your patute!

Quote
Owners and operators of older courses are burdened with increased liability costs as a result.
Isn't the individual responsible for their actions?

Adam, Have you ever figured what insurance costs run for owners of courses that may have golf holes that run a bit too close for comfort in regards to individuals who will sue if a lark spats on them? WAKE-
UP!


I'll stop there, but, in the Dawson article, above this one, name calling and mis-leading factors, such as companies in the golf business's bottomline, don't follow any protocol I've ever seen.

Adam, As you know, I'm not in the golf course business, maybe Lynn could add something here, because he does know, but what experience do you have other then being a player and a caddy, in the day to day operations of a golf course? It would seem from some of your remarks your showing everyone your nihilist coat.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 11:48:02 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2004, 01:44:23 PM »
Ya know what Tommy? I hope that's not the best you can do for arguments sake. You'll have to do much better if you want to get past any committee.

 I've never offered up myself as anybody who was in the golf business. Other than a customer (or do we not count?) My nilhist coat, as you call it is just questioning some of the logic, or lack thereof, behind this age old (Mac, yours, Geoff's, Jack's, now Arnies) movement, to basically put the genie back in the bottle. It boils down to an indiividuals choice. Choose to continue to belong to an obsolete golf course, choose to take your money and build your own. Choose to want to attract major championships, choose to golf by the rules. Who wants or needs someone else limiting their ability to way lay or play the way they want to.

I won't jump on a bandwagon that dictates to everyone else what constitutes good golf or something as irrelevant as "how far". If the obsolescence of these classic courses is true, it's true for a small minority, of people, and of courses, and none of them are us.

If someone can't enjoy the sport anymore, because a handful of professionals, or should be professionals, hit too far,  they should look for other mental stimuli.

Tell me this Tommy, What do television ratings have to do with running a golf course operation?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 01:50:59 PM by Adam Clayman »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2004, 03:16:00 PM »

I've never offered up myself as anybody who was in the golf business. Other than a customer (or do we not count?) My nilhist coat, as you call it is just questioning some of the logic, or lack thereof, behind this age old (Mac, yours, Geoff's, Jack's, now Arnies) movement, to basically put the genie back in the bottle. It boils down to an indiividuals choice. Choose to continue to belong to an obsolete golf course, choose to take your money and build your own. Choose to want to attract major championships, choose to golf by the rules. Who wants or needs someone else limiting their ability to way lay or play the way they want to.

I won't jump on a bandwagon that dictates to everyone else what constitutes good golf or something as irrelevant as "how far". If the obsolescence of these classic courses is true, it's true for a small minority, of people, and of courses, and none of them are us.

If someone can't enjoy the sport anymore, because a handful of professionals, or should be professionals, hit too far,  they should look for other mental stimuli.

Adam, Think about it for a second. Aren't you the one that has always lameted about the changes at Pac Grove? Wouldn't this go against all of the thinking of above?

As for mental stimuli, I seem to remember many an occasion when you have always thwarted change of any kind. Changes at Pacific Grove. Changes at Pinion Hills. Even the building and impropriety of La Quinta.  What makes you think that there is any sort of conspriacy theory by an organization simply wanting to step up and say that the interest of the game is waning as the result of all of the above?  You seem to want to expose them for something Adam. Lets hear why.

Tell us what it is, and what is actual FACT. Not just something your denouncing or have set in your mind as just another threat by the Establishment.


Tell me this Tommy, What do television ratings have to do with running a golf course operation?

Adam,
It has a lot to do with the economic times of the industry.  When the Game is popular, people arre going to be watching it on TV and wanting to go play.  That's where the term "popularity" comes in.  Didn't the age of Tiger Woods prove this to you?  Courses were jammed packed; love it or hate it, the USGA's First Tee Program designed at bringing the game to inner-city roots was born; players, both new and old bought the latest in technology when it came to equipment. Even the magazines were flush with advertisements.  This created a really nice economy in golf.

Then suddenly, it was like Kaiser Soze. WHOOSH! and it was gone!

Now we have the equipment companies ready to look for their next Money Messiah in Michele Wie. She is everything to the equipment companies and golf in general. They are doing anything and everything to make her the next superstar because they need revitalized interest in the Game and their equipment. She opens up the entire female market, and parents will want to buy the same equipment she uses for their children so they can be just like her. And presto! An economy renewed.

So Yes, I think T.V. has a great importance in the success of golf course owners. Success means that they can make a return on their risk.

You and I may not like it because we are anti-commercialists, but ultimately whats worse: No new golf courses ever because the interests just aren't there or the hopes of wanting to be there all dressed-up and no where to go.

The NGCOA has done nothing but outlined all of the paticulars of what they believe will help all golf courses survive the on-slaught of equipment escallation.  They have also outlined the reasons why they believe slow play is detrimental to this success, and much of it can be blamed on equipment that allows people to have to wait to play their second shots on par 5's, not just the par 3's and short 4's!

Jump off your conspiracy theories Adam. The NGCOA is simply concerned about the Game. If they weren't, and someone posted a story of them doing the opposite you would probably find fault in that too. But its understandable given the times.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2004, 03:23:59 PM »
Tommy,

If you keep posting/arguing Mucci-style, I might have to stop reading them.   ::)

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2004, 03:30:49 PM »
Tommy, the disfiguring of courses, includes the flattening of the greens. Is that on the same tangent as reducing how far the ball travels?

Poof it was all gone, is a bit over the top.

Plus, Doesn't obsolescence create more new work for archies, not less?

And,
You said this;
 
Quote
Adam, What? A man isn't allowed to make a profit for owning and maintaining a golf course? Come on Adam. I couldn't disagree more with you on this

I never would deny someone the opportunity to make a profit, So either you twisted my words, or you mis-understood. I beleive the expectation of profit is whole different kettle of fish.

Opportunity gains are more along the lines of reality, if you run a fair business, or a playing pro living today.

With the number of dollars being generated on Tour, monumental jumps backward in time, I feel, are highly unlikely. I am allowed to feel and state my feelings, aren't I?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 03:48:49 PM by Adam Clayman »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2004, 04:14:37 PM »
Scott, Sorry to disappoint, but I was doing this pre-Mucci. He just perfected it with solid rubbuttal. (sp)

Tommy, the disfiguring of courses, includes the flattening of the greens. Is that on the same tangent as reducing how far the ball travels?
Adam, The disfiguring of all classic courses is bad--from the ill decisions of the committees that want the change to the architects that inspire them.

Poof it was all gone, is a bit over the top.

No it isn't. Go find me a true George Thomas or a true MacKenzie, or a true Tillinghast, or a true MacDonald that hasn't been altered from the way the architect originally envisioned it--warts and all.  This is more or less the reason why Tillie hated what became of the Game, as well as MacDonald and Thomas and others.

Plus, Doesn't obsolescence create more new work for archies, not less?

Adam, Its the architect's job to preserve and influence the originality of the work. (when it comes to restoration.) Tom Doak says that there is probably only a handful of courses that should ever bee attempted to be restored to begin with, but I think he says that simply because he doesn't want to see other architects screw-them-up, just for the sake of doing work.  That's the mindset of 99% of them. Success comes from numbers--not quality or adherance to the artform. (I fully expect a response from Jeff Brauer on this one.)

I am allowed to feel and state my feelings, aren't I?

Absolutely! Freedom of speech is welcomed at every juncture. So is the will to be educated!




« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 04:15:06 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2004, 06:10:00 PM »
Tommy,

It took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say there!  But, knowing almost every gca in the biz, I would say that 90% of us still love the craft first, and worry about the business side to the smallest degree possible.  Sure, there are some who have burned out, and may not realize it, but keep chugging along, but not many.

There are more profitable businesses, even for the big names!   That's because its a time business.  There is little room to achieve efficiencies of the operation, unless the gca uses "Green No. 3" here, and some other template elsewhere.

Of course, even reverred gca types use some kind of template - Ross, Raynor, Maxwell, etc.  I am not sure if that is for convenience, since in my experience, a green never fits in another site - unless its flat and treeless like Midland, TX.  It may just be that they like the concepts enough to modify them to fit other places.

For that matter, you tend to get the jobs you try to sell.  If your portfolio includes nothing but pale imitations of yourself, it will be hard to sell anything other than low budget jobs where they feel they need a gca, but don't want to pay a lot.  So, in some ways, low quality is self defeating.

I don't know if this is the answer you fully expected, but there you have it! ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2004, 06:18:30 PM »
Tommy, You asked for facts, but don't provide any to educate. What specific classic course has been hurt by the ball's distance. Pebble still holds it's course record, The Riv and Weschester hold up to par better than most of these new monsters they play on tour. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be the modern, longer courses, just play into the hands of the longer professional? While the older classics hold thier own. Michaud tried to teach the world that a sub 7000 yarder could hold the best players, using all this new technology, within an acceptable level of what constitutes par. I saw that. Some must've missed that, or thought it too ridiculous to say so, save for Tom Watson. And me of course.

Honestly, with all the heavyweights puting thier $.02 in, now all of a sudden this organization jumps on the bandwagon. Isn't it odd that they would concern themselves with what top pros do?

I'd bet any amount that if there were no tour, no course owner would starve.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2004, 06:39:17 PM »
I'd bet any amount that if there were no tour, no course owner would starve.

Adam,

Your naivete is showing. There are a great many course operators out there that are not making it, financially speaking. It may not be directly related to the ball issue, but your comments are too broad sweeping and lacking in understanding of the business end of golf. You do, however, have a decent grasp on things architectural..... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2004, 08:25:45 PM »
All this talk about distance and dispersion has me confused.  On other recent threads, some were complaining that advancements in technology resulted in the ball going too straight.  Which way is it?  Long and crooked, or just long?

I am glad that the Emperor believes it is okay to make a buck, even in golf.  A capitalist and an enviromentalist.  A true Renaissance man.

At the same time, I am disappointed that former commodities guru Aclayman sees a problem with the word profit used in the same sentence as golf.  Though I am impressed with his many libertarian positions, what is wrong for owners to cite the environment in their efforts to reign in the arms race?  Just once they have this bogey man that has been used so successfully to beat them over the head on their side and Adam wants to take it away from them.  For shame.

Not that Geoff has an agenda or an ax to grind, nor that he is among the first to warn us that the sky is falling (that's been done continuously for over 100 years since shortly after the game was formalized), but the game is resilient and keeps evolving.  I don't believe that it is going the way of tennis, and I have full faith that the owners will figure things out.  And if not, the marketplace will sort things out.  In the meantime, for most of us, the times for golf have not been better.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2004, 09:37:55 PM »
Tommy, You asked for facts, but don't provide any to educate. What specific classic course has been hurt by the ball's distance. Pebble still holds it's course record, The Riv and Weschester hold up to par better than most of these new monsters they play on tour. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be the modern, longer courses, just play into the hands of the longer professional? While the older classics hold thier own. Michaud tried to teach the world that a sub 7000 yarder could hold the best players, using all this new technology, within an acceptable level of what constitutes par. I saw that. Some must've missed that, or thought it too ridiculous to say so, save for Tom Watson. And me of course.

Honestly, with all the heavyweights puting thier $.02 in, now all of a sudden this organization jumps on the bandwagon. Isn't it odd that they would concern themselves with what top pros do?

I'd bet any amount that if there were no tour, no course owner would starve.

Adam,
Joe is right. Your showing a lot of naivate on this subject, and I don't want to make this sound personal, because it isn't. We're buds.

But since your asking for a classic course thats been harmed by the long golf ball, start with the letter "A" (as in "Augusta") and then go from there. You'll figure it out!  ;D

You keep on thinking that this is specifically one organization dictating to the others (USGA, R & A, the PGA Tours, etc.) when all they are essentially saying is that they back any stance by these organizations against the gross inflation of technology.

Good for them, and I'll tell you this--they seem to get it more then Golf 20/20 and the other committees and gatherings that have been severely in-effective.

You mention Pebble still having its course record--well what does that have to do with people getting bombarded in the middle of fairways waiting for the group on the green?  The point is that the driving average of these players has gone up and so has the pace of play on the PGA Tour. Adam, Do you know how many events this season were threatened or play halted because of lack of daylight?  You seem to forget the US Open debacle.

I'll give you a few other names for you to study while your at it. Merion, Oakmont, Bethpage Black, Shinnecock Hills, Riviera, Olympic, etc, have all re-situated tees because of length increases. Why even Torrey Pines, and its not even close to being a classic!

Adam, Do you know how many people insist on playing the wrong tees at torrey Pines, just so they can match their grits against the best, knowing that they play from those ridiculous tees? We're talking a course that wnet from like 7100 yards and is now 7800! Thats 700 yards! Do you realize the difficulty that 700 yards adds?


Jeff Brauer,
I'm constantly reminded of many architects that take great pride in their work and even claim to study the golden age with a passion not unlike that of the Game's most avid historians.

I have been around the David Rainville's who claimed they were MacKenzie experts and had experience in remodeling MacKenzie courses. They are generally good willed and honorable people--except they tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to attention to detail--especially if pictures and construction documents are at hand. They'll offer you ever excuse in the world why they can't do it like the original architect because the client doesn't want that, all the while the client is dying to get into the MacKenzie Society and will dress up a boomerang green in a Santa Claus suit just to do so.

This isn't a matter of me putting those people down. Its a matter of them doing work they are not capable of performing because they aren't very good at it, and aren't neccessarily trained for it either.

--If I went to go have my feet scraped, would I go to a heart specialist?
--If I wanted a heart transplant, would I seek out a psychologist?
--If I wanted to talk to someone about my quirks and nuainces and how they affect me, especially since the lack of seratonin isn't flowing in my brain; would I talk to a bartender?

(Well two out of three ain't bad!) ;D

Lou,
I recently told someone you reminded me of someone that makes his place of residence deep in the heart of Orange County. (The stars at night, so big and bright, deep in the heart of Orange County.....) As you know, I live in Orange County--on the way outskirts, far away from being considered deep in the heart and so close to L.A. County that if I were to lose a wingnut and breakdown, the L.A. County Sheriff could actually be called in.  

Does this make me any less then a revolutionary as say Che Guerva? "I don' tink so!" ;)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 09:43:24 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:News from the National Golf Course Owners Association
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2004, 10:50:56 PM »
Tommy,

I live in a red state and proud of it.  So, please forgive me for not having a clue as to what you're saying.  Che who?  Did he do some work in Central America?  Was he a minimalist or just a nihlist?  If I am not mistaken, he was from the era just preceeding sex, drugs, and rock'n roll?  I think that I read somewhere that despite problems with personal hygiene, he did very well with the ladies. Viva la revolucion!