Jamie Slonis's take on Flynn's Indian Creek?

[TEPaul]

I'm sure I'll probably embarrass him--maybe even tick him off some (but that's what comes with success) but I wanted to get New Jersey's Jamie Slonis to give his honest take on William Flynn's Indian Creek!

Indian Creek is an unusual course for Flynn as the complete and entire course was man-made by him. The entire island of Indian Creek was also entirely man-made and was flat as a pancake when Flynn got to work on Indian Creek G.C. . It's sort of amazing to see the place and that long gradual elevation change on #9 and #18 all the way up to the clubhouse on the 35 foot high long flowing hill and to think he created all that back in the late 1920s.

Anyway, Jamie Slonis is one of my best "go to" guys if I want to find out the honest unadulterated skinny on what a young and long national amateur level player looks at on courses today and how they look at it. This has a lot to do with shot values, the entire spectrum of how a good player at that level intelligently looks at risk and reward, green speed and firmness and all those other things today in this new era of ratched up distance etc.

I just find that he always supplies really thoughtful analyses that seems to be devoid of ego and exagerration of any type or degree, and that's important to me as we look at golf architecture, particularly old architecture, as honestly and accurately as possible today.

I think Jamie Slonis is also one of the most thoughtful and intelligent analysts on this website and his analyses on certain things is very useful from his particular perspective--at least it is to me. He calls it how he sees it, in my opinion, honest analysis, never too far on the side of either unnecessarily glowing praise or damning criticalness. He's part of the committee that has to do with the Forse restoration of Alex Findlay's Tavistock G.C which they're very excited about. The Forse plan apparently just passed membership approval overwhelmingly.

So I'd really like to know EXACTLY what Jamie Slonis thinks of William Flynn's Indian Creek which he just played in the Ray Floyd Invitational.

Another reason I'm asking him on here is obviously he's been on somewhat of a roll recently. He was the runner-up in Sept in the Crump Cup and in the last round of the Floyd Invitational he shot a 63!!

I think that deserves a hand from even you gnarled and grisled band of architecture fanatics and critics on here!  

[Mike_Cirba]

A 63 at Indian Creek?  Fantastic, Jamie...congratulations!  

What did that place and how was the scoring overall?  Any wind?

[Jason Mandel]

I can't tell you how excited I was to hear last week that one of my best friend's father was searching for a winter home on the island

jason

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

cONGRATULATIONS Jamie,
That is great playing both at the Crump and at the Floyd.
I look forward to seeing you again someplae sometime next year.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

Awww shucks...  

Indian Creek is a very interesting place.  I was surprised to hear at first that it was a totally man made Island.  Flynn certainly worked some magic on that property.  From what I was told during my time there, is that the site of the clubhouse is in fact the highest point in elevation in Dade County.

I thought overall the golf course was very good.  During the tournament the greens were slightly firm and fast for Bermuda greens.  From a design perpective, the par 3's really stand out, especially the 12th hole.  It is one of the more difficult par 3's you'd play anywhere.  It was interesting to me that given a relatively flat piece of property to start with most of the greens were plateaued somewhat with bunkers and falloffs to most sides.   With the greens "pushed up" and the fallaway features, many of the approach shots had a Pinehurst/Ross feel to them.  I thought Flynn did a great job with the routing.  There is a great variety to the golf course in both the direction of the holes and their individual design.  I found the greens themselves to be quite intersting.  Unlike alot of Fla. courses, they had some good contour and slope to them.  It was also nice to play a Florida course that doesn't have water hazards everywhere.  The course definitely has a more "northern" feel to it.  The "normal" course is played as a par 72 with both the 9th and the 18th playing as short par 5's.  During the final round we played the orginal Flynn course, with #9 & #18 playing as long par 4's.  As we all know par is just a number, but I preferred the final round setup(par 70) with the long par 4 finisher.

As for the shot values...I would have to say that at Indian Creek, Flynn does a great job of testing all aspects of a players game.  There is a nice mix of right to left and left to right holes, and as I said above, the par 3's are a very good test.  

By modern standards, the overall length is quite short. I think it's a bit over 6600 from the back tees.  Given that yardage, I had many wedge approach shots, but given the strength of the holes, I didn't really think about it being too short.  During the tournament, they tucked the pins in some great spots.  You had to be very careful on both direction and distance.  With the large bunkers and falloffs it was easy to miss greens if you weren't very precise.  We had just a small amount of wind to contend with during the tournament, so I could only imagine how much more difficult the course would play under normal windier conditions.

Indian Creek is indeed a great members course.  I'm sure it can certainly play alot different from day to day depending on the wind.  It's a very sporty design that would be fun to play on an everyday basis.

This was a stream of conciousness quick review...I'll see if I can add more particulars after some more thorough thought.

Mike,

That score was during the final round(Better Ball).  Thankfully, my partner covered my "bogey" hole with a par of his own to give us a 62 for the day.  It was the lowest round of the day by 4 shots.  The wind was light, maybe 5-15mph.  We started the day well back, but jumped past alot of teams and finished 2nd overall.

MichaelWP,

Thanks for the good wishes.  I was going to jump in and back you up on that Pine Valley thread, but you were doing so well on your own, I thought I'd just let you roll on....

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

I was going to call you up and ask you if you'd mind if I put this kind of post on here but what would I have expected you to say about that? Why run the risk of having you say you'd prefer I didn't because then I was just going to do it immediately anyway and how would that have looked?

Anyway, a real congratulations on a score like that in a really good tournament. That's one for your record book. Now lets see you do that next year in the finals of the Crump Cup!  

By the way, do you know what the course record is down there? It's gotta be pretty low with the Floyds being around there for so long.

Actually, you know where I heard about your round? It was from my brother in law and Gary Daniels. They said when I guess the word was getting around some guy said; "Who's Jamie Slonis (this was the first time he ever saw the place fellow GOLFCLUBATLASERS), I don't know him, he can't be that good?" And the guy he was speaking to said: "Look pal, he just shot a 63!"---to which the first guy said something like; "OH, maybe he is pretty damn good!"  

[George Pazin]

Congratulations, Jamie. I have shot 63 many many times, but never for 18 holes....

Regarding Indian Creek, does anyone know the how's and why's as to the design of the course? Did Flynn formulate holes in his head, and then move land accordingly?

My recollection - and I could be 100% wrong on this - was that when designing The Rawls Course at Texas Tech (completely man made on flat land), Tom D & his crew brought in dumptrucks of sand, shaped it somewhat haphazardly, and then designed around it. This would almost be a man made approach to "finding" holes, rather than simply sculpting them.

[TEPaul]

"Did Flynn formulate holes in his head, and then move land accordingly?"

George:

There were no holes in Flynn's head at all and even if there were he had so much hair no one would've noticed. No really---architecture, at least routing, may've come to Flynn in an instant flash---perhaps aided and abetted by that necessary flask! I think, and I'm trying to get Wayne to see it too, that Flynn could look at the most complex land imaginable or a flat pancake like blank canvas and instanteously KAZAM---the entire golf course would come to him in an instant!!!  

[JSlonis]

Jamie:

I was going to call you up and ask you if you'd mind if I put this kind of post on here but what would I have expected you to say about that? Why run the risk of having you say you'd prefer I didn't because then I was just going to do it immediately anyway and how would that have looked?

Tom,

Thanks for your honesty!!

For the record, I don't mind sharing my thoughts about any place I've been lucky enough to play.  If you can't share what you've seen at some of these great courses, what good would it be??

Jason,

You should see a couple of the new "homes" that are currently under construction on Indian Creek!  "Homes" is a very loose term in the description of these places.  From what I have heard, one of the "homes" across the street from the 2nd hole is supposed to approach 30,000 square feet.  It's truly insane.

[wsmorrison]

Here are some photos from Indian Creek.  I hope Jamie will comment on the playability of the holes and the ground movement Flynn took great care to provide.

The Clubhouse.  At 35 feet above sea level, it overlooks much of the course.



2nd fairway



4th tee



6th tee



6 green



11 fairway



12 tee



13 tee



13 right approach



16 approach



17 approach



18 tee

[wsmorrison]

Tom Macwood started a thread on angles.  Flynn's use of angles on this course is especially good.

The 4th fairway demonstrates how Flynn used mounds and bunkers to frame the landing area.

The 6th tee shot doesn't look like there's room to land a shot, but there is well over 100 yards of fairway beyond the bunker complex.  If you notice the last 3 bunkers on the tee shot photo, they are the 3 bunkers in line near the green.  From the tee it looks like one massive bunker field to the green.

The 11th fairway demonstrates Flynn's use of wide bunkers that makes great use of the openness and scale of things helping to keep the golfer's eye at a wide angle and not focused down the center.

The bunker schemes on 12 and 13 were sandy waste areas at one time, much like Shinnecock, Boca Raton, Atlantic City, and other seaside courses.  Now the bunkers are formalized with precise edging.

The 16th approach shows excellent ground contours and superb green and bunker angles.

[JSlonis]

Here are some photos from Indian Creek.  I hope Jamie will comment on the playability of the holes and the ground movement Flynn took great care to provide.

The Clubhouse.  At 35 feet above sea level, it overlooks much of the course. The clubhouse is absolutely fantastic.  Great architecture in its own right.  The locker room is one of the best you'll find anywhere.


This is the approach to #9. Played as a short par 5 or long par 4.  Great uphill approach to a well guarded green.  Tricky green in that the Bermuda grain runs toward the back left primarily, which is slightly uphill.


2nd fairway


Tricky fairway at first.  The actual fairway is much wider and further right than it appears.  The green is one of the most complex on the course.

4th tee


Semi blind tee shot between two saddle type mounds.  Great 2nd shot hole as the green falls away slightly in the back left and also in the back right.

6th tee


Another very good driving hole.  Flynn's bunkering makes the proper line for the Driver very deceptive.

6 green


Another great green. One of the largest on the course with a slight false front and fallaway to the right.

11 fairway


A reachable par 5 for the long hitter.  The green slopes severely from right to left making the placement of your 2nd shot very important.  You can't miss this green right if the hole is any where center or right center.  The cross bunkers also make you think if you have an inbetween yardgage for your layup shot.

12 tee


In my opinion the most difficult par 3 on the course and one of the most difficult anywhere to find the putting surface.  The hole is about 185-195 from the back tees and usually playes into the wind.  The green pinches in the front third and runs diagonally from front right to back left.  There is a steep falloff to the right and deep bunkers around.

13 tee


Another risk reward hole.  It's about 310 from the back tees.  With little wind the green can be reached with driver, although it is perched up pretty high with steep falloffs on all sides.  Almost impossible to hold with a driver, and no easy up and down from below the green.

13 right approach


Good view of the fortress nature of the green complex.  In actuality it is even more severe than this picture indicates.

16 approach


Probably the most contoured green on the course.  The Superintendent must have a blast finding hole locations for this green.

17 approach



18 tee

Gotta run..I'll finish this commentary a little later....

[TEPaul]

That 16th green really fascinated me. Just all about angles and control of differing distances. I can see a lot of players hitting good shots and maybe in the direction they want and miscalculating their distance and coming up short in the far right greenside bunker or flying right over the back of the green when going short and left!

[Jeff_Mingay]

A really neat thread is developing here... good idea, Tom. And thanks Jamie, for taking the time.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

Profusely congratulate Jamie Slonis on his 63 or go to your room without supper!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I've come to learn that it wasn't Jamie's 63! He had some assistance  

Congrats, Jamie!

[TEPaul]

Jeff;

What do you mean by that? It was a 63 on his own ball--his partner woke up on the 17th hole and bailed him out so they could shoot 62!

I remember one time around here Davis Sezna played a BETTER BALL tournament with Jay Sigel which they won going away and Davis didn't help him a stroke as Sigel shot something like a 64. Davis went up and got the prize and said it was the best ONE BALL he'd ever seen.

[Jeff_Mingay]

With all apologies, I obviously mis-read this.

Geez Jamie. That's pretty amazing, anywhere. In a tournament like the Ray Floyd Invitational, too. Wow!

This is my sincere congrats  

[Tripp_Davis]

TEPaul,

A very good thread on one of my favorite courses.  My partner and I won the Floyd in 2002, but I could not defend in 03 because it fell on Halloween (I have two young daughters who would not have forgiven me).  We played this year but I was unfortunately coming off two and half months rest after hurting my wrist at the Porter Cup.  I heard of Jamie's round and 7 under on your own ball is quite strong.  

Not only is the golf course very good, the club itself - the locker room, the staff, the food, etc. - is great.  On par with great places like Winged Foot.  As a matter of fact, many Winged Foot members call Indian Creek home in the winter.  

The tendancy of this thread to talk about angles at Indian Creek is right on.  For a relatively short course, the angles, the makeup of the greens and greens surrounds, and the changing wind make this a very tough little course.  Playing #8, #9 as a par four, #10, #11, #12 and #13 is one of the most interesting stretch of holes you will play anywhere.  With almost every hole you have to find the right angles into the greens and you have to know the greens because you can use the slopes to get at pins.  For example, on #11 there is a back left pin you can get to by hitting a low shot in that will feed hard left.  One of the reasons angles are so important is because the greens are normally firm.  This is something that more golf courses should consider.  

I can see that a good bit of dirt could have been moved, but the only place you can tell this for sure is on the 13th where it is evident the fairway was raised significantly on the right side to bank the fairway.  Otherwise, everything ties in very nicely.  

Jaimie is right, the par three's on this course are as good as they get.  #12 is one of the most intimidating shots you will find.  #5 always has wind messing with you.

The greens were not as fast or as firm this year as they were in 2002 - I actually held a couple of mid irons close to where they landed - but they were fast and firm enough to make it interesting.  

Do you recall the discussion about Wannamoisset?  A lot of the same things apply at Indian Creek where angles keep the longer player from having significant advantages if they are not coming at the pin from the proper angle.    

Indian Creek is a great example of a relatively simple course that is great to play because the architect knew the subtle impact of subtle slopes and subtle angles.

[TEPaul]

Tripp:

Are you sure Tripp Davis isn't your professional name when you practice golf architecture but when you go play tournaments you aren't actually Trip Kuehne? You're some kind of strong amateur competitor---I can just smell it!

Do you know Graham Cooke the architect? He's a pretty fine player in any case but although he might be getting near senior category he says he's going to gear up again and really get into much more amateur competition.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Very interesting comments from Jamie and Tripp, particularly regarding how a short course, by today's standard, continues to challenge good players. Thanks men.

I haven't visited Indian Creek yet, but it sounds like a wonderful study. Both in terms of interesting challenge, and what can be had with a non-descript property - and a sizable budget I presume!

[Jason Mandel]

Jaime,

Congrats on the tournament, and the 63!!  My little brother is a freshman at Miami, so i'm sure i will be down there a lot the next 4 years.

I doubt my friends dad will be getting a place anywhere near 30,000 square feet, but what she did tell me was that if you bought a house on the island, it was MANDATORY to join the club    

jason

[TEPaul]

Tripp Davis said:

"The tendancy of this thread to talk about angles at Indian Creek is right on. For a relatively short course, the angles, the makeup of the greens and greens surrounds, and the changing wind make this a very tough little course......Indian Creek is a great example of a relatively simple course that is great to play because the architect knew the subtle impact of subtle slopes and subtle angles."

Tripp:

I think you're exactly right that those things are the right things to talk about with this golf course. I found it to be really interesting that way and I think you can see a lot of the strength of Flynn, the architect, in it still today, but.....

....I really hate to say this because I feel it might get somebody in some hot water but the immaculatenss of that golf course disturbed me. I mean look at those photographs that've been posted on here! I don't think the course has probably changed that much architecturally and I know Ron Forse has been working on it recently and I know Ron and what he does and can do---but come on now Indian Creek looks like a study in golf maintenance ultra perfection and immaculateness.

The super, the pro and some others really gave us a helluva great time down there for most of an entire day but just look at those bunkers, for instance, and most of the overall grassing on the course. I think most all of those bunkers are actually Flynn's but have any of you ever seen that golf course when Flynn finished it, or shortly thereafter? It LOOKED simply amazing with wild and cool bunker shapes and edges and a rugged little veneer to their grass/sand lines and then massive sweeps of wild wind-swept looking sandy waste areas all over the place.

The golf course back then probably didn't PLAY much different than it does now but the look of it was so much more interesting and impressive than that study in immaculatness they're doing now.

I guess the membership just likes it to look that way but I know for a fact that if for some crazy reason that club and it's membership gave their present superintendent his own lead he'd have that golf course LOOKING so cool in about two years even some of us would fall over and die!

You should have seen the way it used to look! I know the architectural bones and the playbility is still pretty much all there but if they'd take it back even half way back to that great LOOK Flynn designed and constructed that golf course's stock and reputation would rocket!

If I offended somebody or I get someone in hot water---sorry about that but I asked Jamie Slonis for his honest opinion of Indian Creek so why not give mine?

[JSlonis]

Great to have Tripp add his comments.  He's obviously a great talent at both designing and playing courses.

He touched on an area that I inadvertently forgot to mention, and is a vital part of Inidan Creek's design...ANGLES.

As Tom has also said, much of the subtle greatness that is found at Indian Creek comes from this design feature.  It is refreshing to see a course that has kept the "width" that is so important to the design.  There are definite lines of charm that make each hole unique, and the width of the design allows for those lines to change depending upon the hole locations.  It's great to see those original options not be choked off by narrowing down the playing corridors.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Hope this helps give a perspective of the routing: