[JakaB]

I don't see it.....and for this reason alone wonder how it can compare to Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Bethpage or even Pinehurst #2.   Pine Valley is a sporty little members course though...but is that enough to make it best in the country...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JB...I assume you are trying to upset people again and create a controversial thread...nobody it biting...so I will

What the hell are you thinking!!!!!!

Have you played PV recently?

The new tees have more than brought the course into the time we now find ourselves..not that I think they needed to anyway....If you can point to any more difficult par fours than number 13,and 18 from the new tees I owe you a drink..is 15 not the hardest par 5 on the planet?  in # 5 not the hardest par three on the planet?...maybe it is just the quality of my game, but Pine Valley is all the course I can handle.

JB, thanks for getting my juices flowing this morning....

[JakaB]

 but Pine Valley is all the course I can handle.

So is Torrey Pines South...so what does that have to do with greatness.   If Bel-Air can host a Senior Am and not be a championship course.....how can Pine Valley not host a damn thing and be a championship course....I think they might be a bit selfish to be the best course in the country...or maybe they know that the modern straight ball might lead to a 60 or 61.....oooooohhhhh that would be embarrassing...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think you fail to realise they simply dont give a shit...they dont want ant outside events.
They are quite content to host the Crump Cup for those of us lucky enough to be invited and that is all they want.
As for a 61 or 62 quite possibly, but so can just about every other course I know.
If you put the best players in the world on any course, that has not been artificially tricked up, it will yield a low number..but that certainly does not have anything to do with greatness..if it did we would have to be content with a ranch like Whistling Straits from the tips being considered great!!!!

[JakaB]

Michael,

Don't you think that every course in the country that takes advantage of the good people of the USGA owes those very people a chance to play in a USGA event at least once a decade.....I know Pine Valley is tight for spectators....but it could easily handle the crowds of any of the AM's.  

[Sean Leary]

The new tees were necessary in order to put driver back in the better player's hands.  That being said, I believe the (old)course record is  62 or 63 by Bob Tway.  The difficulty in that golf course is in the greens (at least for the better player), so it all depends on where they put the hole locations anyway.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am not sure of the answer to your question JB, does that mean that CPC and Augusta should also hole a Usga event, how about San Fran GC, you know the type of clubs I mean.
I thought in this country that is what Private meant...by the way did you forget that PV staged the Walker Cup not that long ago.
If staging a USGA type event is added to your criteria for course greatness, I fear we are going to loose many of the "private" clubs in that higher level.

[JakaB]

Michael,

The clubs are still great...but not as great as the courses I mentioned in my initial post.   I think the Walker Cup event was over a decade ago....and no I will never forget Davis Love III shaping one iron around the course in what might be the finest golf ever played.....Hell,  I would even count a Curtis Cup as satisfactory.   I'm just talking about the number 1 course in the country....and to save you time...It is Oakmont in my book...they meet all the criteria..

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Are we talking about PV being entitled to numer one ranking or its value as a championship course as your original post asked?

These may be two different questions..which one is it?
I can understand your belief that in order to be granted #1 in your opinion the course should give something back, I have no problem with that in theory, if that is part of your criteria fine. BUT, to question its quality as a championship golf course I think you are crazy.
However, I cannot imagine any of the so called influential polls even caring about courses that give back....but then again who cares about them anyway!

I am amazed so few have chimed in on this topic, have you scared them all away ?

[JakaB]

Michael,

It is difficult to talk about Pine Valley because of access issues....these guys even give the sanitized restoration work of Fazio a pass...

[Phil_the_Author]

John, the measure of a golf course's greatness is not to be found in a low score. You cite 61 or 62 as if it denigrates a course to have that score occur - to the contrary. It uplifts the player who shoots it to an even finer category of player.

No one loves the Black more than me. You make a comparison that I believe is fair as to ranking based on whether it is a championship venue or not, but score does not define whether it is one.

On May 11, 1961, during a high school golf tournament played from the championship tees, my 17-year old brother shot a 62 on Bethpage Black. It still has not been approached.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Well hell where's the fun in that!!!!

I do enjoy the sharing of opinions, personally I think that PV deserves the number 1 ranking
I think PB is ranked on the high side, and I consider Merion to be underated at whatever number it is..
My top 5 if I had to come up with them would probably be
PV
Merion
Royal Birkdale
CPC
Pacific Dunes

[TEPaul]

Pine Valley, as a design, is very definitely a championship golf course. That was the original intention of the design and that's what the course still is today albeit a fairly unique style of championship design---probably loosely defined as rather penal in playability.

However, PVGC, on purpose, is definitely a championship design and golf course that's never in their history been interested in holding major championships there and never really has (Walker Cup, local Opens etc). The reasons they never wanted to hold championships there is interesting however. The best way to describe what the course was intended to be by it's creator, Geroge Crump, was more in the way of a training ground for the local elite players to do well in championships of all types, although never necessarily there.

[JakaB]

Phillip,

How many more people do you think Bethpage has enriched the lives of compared to Pine Valley....2 to 1...8 to 1 or 100 to 1.....By that measure of greatness Bethpage must be number 1 in the country.

That being said....do you think Pine Valley falls short on being the greatest course in the country by not allowing access for people who earn their way on through extreeme dedication and talent....not money or connections.   That being people who qualify for USGA events...

[Mike_Sweeney]

JakaB,

Serious question, if you and I played at this level, which would you rather be: USGA Mid-Amateur Champion or Crump Cup Champion ?

I personally would rather be the latter.

[JakaB]

Mike,

You are kidding me....as the USGA Mid-Am champion I would be eligible to play in the Masters if they chose to invite me....I just want to qualify for an USGA event before I die or give up the game.....looks like my last shot is to stay healthy for another 11 years and quit gaining 5lbs a year....The Senior Am with its 18 hole qualifier is no more than a 30 to 1 shot.....not really....no more than a 500 to 1 shot....no...based on my current hadicap and the six dollar burger my wife just brought me.....no more than a 18,000 to 1 shot....kinda like me getting a hole in one next time I play...

[Matt_Ward]

John:

I'll bite on your tempting curve-ball premise.

PV, for me is great course because of the architecture -- although I have major questions concerning the wide number of trees that now dot the landscape as opposed to the earliest pictures which show a layout far different than what you visually see today.

Regarding your question on is PV a "championship course." I would say not simply because I define "championships" as the highest sort of competitions to determine "champions" such as the US Open and PGA, etc, etc.

But bear in mind this -- the determination of greatness need not be determined / ascertained simply through a club being validated in hosting such events. The greatness of PV -- one of the few clubs that can bear this -- goes beyond the validation of events of the highest type because of the striking quality of the architecture and the collaborative ingenuity from the varied sources that made it so.

From my own personal point of view, I do value those clubs that can host such events and still be a worthy play for the mid-to-high handicap types. A solid example would be Shinnecock Hills -- which I believe is America's best for the reasons I have just mentioned.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

You are kidding me....as the USGA Mid-Am champion I would be eligible to play in the Masters if they chose to invite me....

You're right.

[JakaB]

Regarding your question on is PV a "championship course." I would say not simply because I define "championships" as the highest sort of competitions to determine "champions" such as the US Open and PGA, etc, etc.

This line of thought by Matt Ward....universally recognized as one of the leading experts on New Jersey golf....as well as past Senior Am participant Pat Mucci saying Bel-Air is not a championship course despite hosting a Senior Am....is the motivation for this thread.   So...is Pine Valley a championship course or not....it is still up in the air...

[Michael Moore]

Barney -

Something tells me that if you ever became the USGA Mid-Am champ that you would find a way to get uninvited from the Masters.

[TEPaul]

John B. Kavanaugh:

Pine friggin' Valley Golf Club is a CHAMPIONSHIP golf course that has simply never held any major championship because they never wanted to!

How much clearer does it need to be made to you? If you want to define a championship course as one that has to have held a major championship at some point, then, no, Pine Valley would not "still be a championship course".

[Ted Kramer]

Regarding your question on is PV a "championship course." I would say not simply because I define "championships" as the highest sort of competitions to determine "champions" such as the US Open and PGA, etc, etc.

This line of thought by Matt Ward....universally recognized as one of the leading experts on New Jersey golf....as well as past Senior Am participant Pat Mucci saying Bel-Air is not a championship course despite hosting a Senior Am....is the motivation for this thread.   So...is Pine Valley a championship course or not....it is still up in the air...

Is the point of the quesion an attempt to define "Championship Course" or Pine Valley? I don't think that you can define a golf course in terms of a title like Championship if that very designation isn't clearly understood.

-Ted

[TEPaul]

Michael Moore, would you please RESTORE to your posts the photograph you used to have? I've become very used to it and that latest one is scary looking and consequently I have an entirely new mental image of you and it's not good!

[JakaB]

Michael,

I have great respect for the fact that winning the Mid-Am only provides a possibility of the Masters following the tradition of inviting the champion...that is why I worded my initial answer so carefully.   I could see the fat guy from Tennessee not getting invited back if he was ever so lucky again.   Speaking of that.....Spider Miller is a God now that he won the Mid-Am....it may be the greatest tournament of all for a guy in his fourties to win...

[Ted Kramer]

Barney, every course is a championship course.  Even the great Peter Jans National Golf Club held a championship.  Tim Herron, then a Hogan Tour player,  won with -1 for 36 holes. And virtually every course I've ever heard of holds a club championship.  So I don't get your point.

As to Mid-Am vs. Crump Cup, it's Mid-Am all the way! Why?  (and Pat M., TEP, Jamie Slonis, and all other east coast guys, you're going to just have to take this on my word...)

Nobody has ever heard of the Crump Cup!  Sure, big wigs and connected guys have.  But here in real America (which is what The Barn speaks of), nobody's heard of it.  It might as well not even exist.  If I informally polled 100 random guys I know with handicaps of 2 or lower, I'd bet big money that not more than 5 guys (Ok, maybe 10) know what it is, and that would only be if my random sampling of guys luckily happened to include enough of the jet-set old guard of the local manure tour here that belong to Chicago Golf.  Maybe THEY'd rather win the Crump Cup, but the Mid-Am is WAY more recognized by as Bill O'Reilly would say, "the folks."  And that's among 2 handicaps, which in golfing parlance are hardly "the folks."

 

Not that I disagree with a Mid-Am over the Crump Cup, but your logic doesn't work for me. . .the fact that Joe Blow doesn't know about something doesn't make an ounce of difference to me regarding how badly I might or might not want it.

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