Painswick

[Sean_A]

What is it about Painswick (I assume the course just north of Stroud) that would have some GCAs considering it a hidden gem?

Ciao

[ForkaB]

Well, it is a gem:

--tremendous routing over very difficult land
--some absolutely stunning golf holes
  --2, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 17

And it is still hidden (despite 20 of us descending on there for 3 days last May).

Somewhere in the archives is Paul Turner's initial report on Painswick.  Hopefully somebody more skilled than I in using the crack GCA search engine will oblige and post the link.

Maybe too the real GCAs who attended (Doak, Placek, Hiseman, Waters, McEvoy) might chip in (as it were) with their thoughts.

Have you played there, Sean?  If so, do you think we are all suffering from collective hysteria?

[Brian_Gracely]

Looks like a number of Paul's pictures have been captured here: http://www.pasturegolf.com/courses/painswick.htm

http://www.painswickgolf.com/gallery.php - GCA Ryder Cup Photos

[Marc Haring]

In my opinion it is without doubt a course with many fine holes. Personally I think you have to look at all aspects though and if taken on there own the holes that Rich has identified are indeed exceptional. The problem is they are all -with the exception of 16 and 17- shared or crossing with other holes. This makes the course ludicrously dangerous made even more so by the delightfully eccentric attitude that pervades amongst the regular members i.e. that you should just go ahead and hit your shot regardless, even if innocent people are in your direct firing line.

Actually 17 does not share a fairway with other holes but does join in the fun by a) having as its landing zone a hidden crossroads and b) having a sign warning of the dangers of the hole even though the previous 16 are considerably more likely to impose a gruesome curtailment to the round.

p.s. I would also add #15 to the list of classics and #5 for sheer audacity. I think the one Sean is referring to above is #6.  

[Paul_Turner]

Of course I'll disagree with Sean

#2 is far from easy on the dirve.  OB left and the pit on the right, with the fairway slanting that way.

#4 the main driving hazrad is that track.

#9 it's a tough drive.  Easy to pull left and be stmied by the cospe.  Or slice OB.

#11...you didn't notice the pit on the left?  Painswick ain't about "par".

#14...pull the tee shot and you're in the rubbish.  Prefered line is close to the OB fence.

#16...little danger!!?  Who cares about par?

PS

It is dangerous.  But I wonder how many accidents it has had?  Club has been around since 1891.

[ForkaB]

Sean

I never said any of the holes are classics, just that many of them are stunning, particularly in the context of a 4800 yard course built over a narrow and sloping peice of common ground.  I agree with most of what Marc and Paul say regarding specific holes.  Let me add that, in general, much of Painswick looks wide open, but plays very narrow, due to the slopes on the fairways and the positioning of the greens.  2, 4, 9 and 16 are particularly good examples of this, as Paul noted.  You probably did not get to experience all of the gravity effects of the course playing in November, or perhaps you are an extraordinarily straight and long hitter!  You must also remember, as Paul implies that a course like Painswick is all about 1/2 pars.  If you think of holes like 3, 4, 8, 9, 11, 15 and 16 as "easy" just because it is possible to get onto them in one less than "regulation", you are missing out on the enjoyment and strategic challenge of the course toying with your expectations.  Let me assure you, for example, that 16 is a VERY hard green to hit under competitive conditions.  Not only that, you have 2 thrilling short 3's, 5 and 10, where a 3 often seems like a bogey, but an "other" is very possible if you loft your head on the tee shot.

These, of course, are just my opinions, and probably clouded by the great time we all had there last May.  I'm curious--what courses you have played would you call "hidden gems" and why?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Kington: http://www.kingtongolf.co.uk/index.html

There are any number of interesting courses up and down the Welsh marches.  I don't think any of them is quite at the unique level of Painswick but they're all fun with that irresistible combination of unusual golfing challenges, glorious surroundings and fine upland turf.  Add to the list Llandrindod Wells, Church Stretton, Welshpool and Llanymynech.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Have a look at the annual subs and joining fee on the Kington website!

[Marc Haring]

I think this could be a classic case of putting too much emphasis on par. If you think #16 should be a par three, go ahead and call it a par three. What happens to the hole then? Does it become better?

[ForkaB]

Sean

As a group we only played Painswick--pure Ryder Cup format, 2 rounds each for the 1st two days, singles on the last day.  Individuals played all sorts of other courses before, during (you slackers know who you are!) and after the matches at places like:  Porthcawl, Perranporth, Swinley Forest, Sandwich, St. Enodoc, etc.

This year's event is at Littlestone and Deal in May.  Join us if you can and we can all tell you to your face how woefully misguided you are about Painswick!

[Paul_Turner]

Some of the holes that Sean is dissing.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What if Dr. Alister MacKenzie had been to Painswick?

(Photos by Paul Turner used without permission and in violation of his copyright)

[ForkaB]

Tommy

Pass the smelling salts!

Thank God the good Doctor left England before he could get his hands on Painswick!

[Marc Haring]

What if Fazio got in on the act?

[Tom_Doak]

Sean,

I will back up Rich G. and Paul T. in saying I thought Painswick was an exceptional course, given its configuration.  [However, Rich, I am saving any chip-ins for a return match.]

Despite the teeny-tiny scorecard length, Painswick was the medium for the best golf I saw this year ... an 18-hole match between Rich and myself, Peter McEvoy and Robin Hiseman.  Yes, there were a lot of holes which had to be won in birdie, but it was an interesting match play venue from 1 through 18.

I wouldn't disagree with your preference for fewer blind shots on an ideal course, but I hope you're not so strong-willed that you can't enjoy Painswick for what it does offer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Marc Haring;

Your "Fazio Does Painswick" snap is brilliant.  

I'm thinking of having it made into a poster.

[ForkaB]

Tom

Hold onto those chip ins--if Peter and Robin want a rematch in May I think we'll need them!

Tommy and Marc

Great stuff.

Now how about doing a reverse Painswick photoshop on Cypress Point (i.e. no bunkers).  That should be one helluva golf course...........

[Andy Levett]

Maybe GCA is getting like the old NME (UK music newspaper, now magazine). When I read it, late 70s early 80s, they would discover 'hidden' bands, build them up to be heroes and then, usually around the time of the live shows previewing the second album, start to diss them.

This is my second go at this thread (the first hit the cutting room floor at work this afternoon  when I'd prepared a rebuttal of Sean's  initial criticisms and then hit preview to see a more cogent and concise post had just been made by Mr Turner) but the only thing I would add to Paul and Rich is that yes, 5 and 10 are not dissimilar, but  they were the only blind par 3s I made it to this year so that wasn't overkill, especially as one was forgiving of wide shots and the other less so.

I love Marc and Tommy's very clever Photoshop ideas. Marc was clearly taking the piss but I'm too thick to decode Mr N.  Tommy, don't you think MacK  would have insisted those contours shouldn't be touched? At least over here, he was very much into economy - 'finality' - so wouldn't he have left well alone?

Sean,
Hope to see you in the south-east. You'll find they like setting up games off of scratch, so you, having rashly admitted to being  a CONGU  single figures may  end up playing Ben Crenshaw if he comes across. Still, all good fun.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, you have to keep in mind that GCAers worship at the altar of quirk!  And Painswick sort of defines quirk.  I played a round at Broadway Golf Club farther up into the Cotswolds several years ago, and it has several holes that border a wild drop off into the Vale of Eavesham far below.  I thought that was pretty quirky stuff.  Compared to Painswick, child's play!

We enjoyed Painswick for what it is, fun match play golf course, lots of demanding shots although very short, and many blind shots which are blind only once - more or less.  Absolute bloody disaster awaits virtually every shot and the shot values are therefore intensified.  As Rich points out, hit the PW crisply on #5 and #10 and an ace is not impossible.  Pull or push that shot 10 yds off line and Katy bar the door!

The cross over or intersecting holes are wonderful; I played with a member almost every round and never did see anyone take the slightest chance of hitting or being hit by someone else.

The course is not lushly conditioned but decent, and I found the greens to be quite puttable.  Any ball on the putting surface was usually within 15' of the hole as the greens are so small.

I found the entire experience, both golf and social, to be such fun that I am taking my wife on a round about trip next summer to the Open in St Andrews.  Hopefully she can play once with the ladies and once in a mixed group, that will be great fun.

Possibly May is a better time to play than November if it's been rainy in the Cotswolds.  But give Painswick another go if you can.  Hope to see you at Deal and Littlestone.

Rich - Rye?

[Bill_McBride]

And Paul Turner, we mustn't forget:  "HE'S IN THE COFFIN!"  

[Pete Lavallee]

Frankly, I thought these guys are crazy, traveling all that way to the UK to play a 4800 yard golf course when the country is virtually littered with outstanding courses. When a boondogle, I mean business trip, landed in my lap that week, I got to play the Friday afternoon round there and couldn't have been more mistaken. We were fortunate enough to have the Green keeper's son in our group and learned that the rock is so close to the surface that they often break tynes when aerating the greens! This certainly doesn't help with the drainage and could see how less than ideal turf conditions would exist in the wetter months. But the course requires every club in the bag, you just don't use them in what would be considered standard situations. The course rewards drivers who are straight just as much as it does those who are long. The steepness of the terrain makes the course effectively play much longer; if I was unaware of the listed yardage and you asked me the course distance after the round I'm sure I would have guessed way over. Tom Doak said it best that the course is the ideal matchplay venue; trying to match par as an unaccompanied single might make for more frustration than joy. Besides how can you not love a golf course that has 3 par 3's in a row and has its' only 2 par 5's back to back!

[ForkaB]

Rich - Rye?

Bill

This is probably the first and maybe the last time you will see these words together, but what comes to my mind is:

"Rye!  Road Trip!!  Toga!!!!"

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Where does Painswick rank on the Doak scale?  

I have to say that I mentioned Painswick to Sean in an E-mail discussion about somewhere else.  This other place has a certain similarity to Painswick and I've recommended it be considered in any tour of that region.  It only serves to remind me to that one man's Perranporth is another man's Painswick.  I'm going to have to find a more precise way of describing courses.  'Characterful' is not enough!

My descriptive powers were shown to be negligible this evening when I attended a tasting of 29 Burgundies from Tollot-Beaut, Domaine de L'Arlot, Blain-Gagnard, and Georges Roumier.  If the wines of Domaine de la Romanee-Conti are the vinous equivalent of Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne and RCD then this was like being let loose on a heady mixture of Crystal Downs, Banff Springs, Durban CC and Machrihanish.  I simply ran out of words - and on one occasion found myself writing a 'lingerie aftertaste' in stead of a 'lingering aftertaste'.  Well, they always say that Chambolle-Musigny is silky.....

[Bill_McBride]

Rich: "Don't stop him, he's on a roll!"

I've wanted to play Rye since reading Herbert Warren Wind's wonderful story about the President's Putter.  Can't wait.

[Andy Levett]

Sean,
The GCA Ryder Cup dates all the way back to this May  and was Rich Goodale's idea. Format the same as the other  Ryder Cup - three days, foursomes and fourballs first two, singles third - though it's USA v the rest of the world.  This year's event was all about the camaraderie and the architecture so we won't mention the result.  
Among the attendees at Painswick were Craig Disher and Noel Freeman and they have set up the 2005 event at their clubs, Littlestone and Deal respectively. It's on Wednesday May 18 to Friday May 20. Hope to see you there. This thread has all the info:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14420;start=msg245989#msg245989

I agree with you about Burnham & Berrow - I'd give it a 7 or 8 though I can't really argue with the bit in CG where Doak says something to the effect that if you don't agree with my rating you haven't played enough courses.