[Paul_Turner]

mean to you?

How good does the course have to be?  

If a course is REALLY top notch can it be a "hidden gem"...can it be "hidden"?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Hidden gems to me are courses that requuire a special effort to play -- in many ways they are located in "out of the way" spots that don't provide quick and easy access (from a transportation perspective). I guess for a time one could say Sand Hills fell into that category but now because of all the attention the course rightly gets I would think few people would continue to apply the tag.

Let me also mention that "hidden gem" can sometimes refer to people designing courses that don't have the high profile as the usual cast of people that are often cited on this Website.

For example -- I played Red Rock in Rapid City, SD -- a layout by Ron Ferris. Few people would know much about the course because of its relative isolation and the person who created it.
Would people actually seek out a course by Ferris? Few -- but not many until there is much more awareness.

The same thing applies to Black Mesa just outside of Santa Fe by Baxter Spann although I believe the amount of exposure has likely caused that course to move beyond the word "hidden."

One of the more noted courses in my "neck of the woods" is Forsgate in Jamesburg, NJ. Here's a layout by Charles Banks but because it is located halfway between Phillie and NYC gets little real exposure.

The "star" architects really don't have "hidden gems" because the work they produce is followed so closely. I truly believe that lesser name architects are the ones to follow and it is their work that often produces the hidden gems people want to play.

[Brian_Gracely]

I think a Hidden Gem could be a course or a hole.  Southern Pines was a hidden gem for me this year.  A great little Ross course, that few people (even in this area) have heard of, and it's right in Ross-central.  #6 at Western Gailes was a hidden gem on an well-known course.  Coming over the hill after my 2nd shot to see that green was one of my favorite moments of the year.  

I always think of Hidden Gems as being those types of courses or holes where the feel takes you back to when you first we learning the game and everything was new and fun and you didn't have any pre-conceptions about what a golf course was supposed to be.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've been thrilled that so many GCAers from abroad have taken the trouble to find the Silloths, Huntercombes, Perranporths and Painswicks and then pronounced them hidden gems.  Many of these gems remain hidden to most UK golfers because they don't have the slightest interest in or knowledge of golf course design.  

In the States you all know of Cruden Bay.  I bet if I went into the bar at Alderley Edge Golf Club (my nearest) less than 10% would have heard of it.  

Many of these gems are hidden because they don't seek publicity and couldn't afford it even if they wanted it.  Most golf clubs have enough green-fee-paying visitors to help substantially with the running costs of the club, but they don't want any more because their members won't be able to play when they want (and with redundancies and early retirement there are more members playing all week) and if they get more visitors there will be more wear and tear on the course.

Gems can be anything from priceless diamonds to inexpensive costume-jewelry stones.  Golfing gems have a similar variety from the world-renowned greats down to the little jewels dotted around the Scottish coast.  They remain hidden until they acquire the cult status that brings visitors from all over the world.  I can remember when Ballybunion was hardly known and nobody outside Donegal knew about Ballyliffin, Port Salon, Rosapenna and Narin & Portnoo.  That's all changed.  I suspect that many of our hidden gems are quite happy to remain hidden in a very laid-back British way.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

To me it represents a golf course that is under the radar screen, although in this company of knowledgable individuals, that may be hard to find.

In and around London, I believe there are several..at lesat hidden as far as most americans are concerned.
In the north of England around where Mark lives there are several, the same could be said for courses like Little Aston, Beau Desert,NOrthants County in the midlands.

Here in Arkansas, not exactly the high profile of golf, there are a couple of tremendous designs.
One an old style langford/moreau design at Texarkana cc which is quite superb anf certainly fits the bill of hidden gem

[Mike_Sweeney]

I think it can be on a bunch of levels:

1. Urban Saturation - Places such as Pelham/Split Rock in The Bronx (Van Kleek) (which I drove past for probably 10 years), Bergen Hills/River Vale in Jersey (Orin Smith) and Ran's infamous Walnut Lane in Philly are so covered with people, carts and poor to ok conditioning that it is hard to see a pretty good course. But catch them early or late in the day and they can be pretty nice.

2. Seasonal clubs, not on Top XYZ list - Misquamacut in RI, Wianno on The Cape (Ross), Bald Peak in The White Mountains of NH (Ross) and Gardiners Bay CC on Shelter Island are all summer clubs with tight memberships that dont care what Top XYZ list they aren't on, and thus they are fairly hidden.

Of the courses listed above, only Misquamicut could probably rank higher than a 6 of The Doak scale, but I would recommend any of them.

3. Remote - Carne and outside of this well traveled group, Sand Hills would be my two picks for remote courses.

[CHC1948]

Yale...it's well known, but man is it hidden!
CHC

[Sam Sikes]

In my mind, a hidden gem is a course you may read about, but never see pictures of.  Lets face it, in this group, there aren't many hidden gems, but to me, CAMARGO is the ultimate hidden gem.

[Cory Lewis]

My definition of a Hidden Gem is a course that is difficult to find that surprised me in a positive way.  The most notable examples I can think of are Pete Dye and Myopia Hunt, very difficult to find, but amazing experiences once I got on the course.  Like others have said, lack of knowledge about a course contributes to it's being a hidden gem.  I knew nothing about Pete Dye or Myopia before I played them.

[ed_getka]

Dave,
   Interesting that you used Pasatiempo as an example. That was the course I first thought of as I read this thread. Even here in the Bay Area, I bet less than 10% of golfers (non-GCA that I have met) will have played it, and not many more will have heard of it. For that matter 99% of golfers I have met don't even know that SFGC exists! Of course, I don't get around much.

Mark,
   That is very interesting that most golfers over your way don't know about Cruden Bay. Do you think this is a cost driven factor?

[Paul_Turner]

Interesting and varying opinions.  I'd personally see Pasa as being far too well known to be classed as a hidden gem.

[THuckaby2]

Ed:

Come on, that's not right.  I can't think of any golfer I know who hasn't heard of both Pasatiempo and SFGC.. and I hang out with a very low-level crowd.

Now I might grant you that less than 10% of avid local golfers have played Pasa - but that's just because it's so damn expensive.  But everybody's heard of it - and SFGC - because they are so highly-ranked by the magazines, mainly.  My guess is 95% of local golfers who play more than 5 times a year will have definitely heard of both, and likely have some opinions on them... which are mainly gonna be "too expensive" or "too damn private" but will be opinions nonetheless.

And Paul's right - Pasa is way too well-known to be a hidden gem for anyone.  But Dave's take is correct in general as there certainly are different ways to view this.

[ed_getka]

I modified my original post.

Paul,
   I bet if you ask 1,000 golfers (non-GCA) you will not find greater than 10% that will have even heard of Pasa.

Hell, I've had people give me blank stares when Cypress Point is mentioned. And that is about as non-hidden gem as you can get.

[THuckaby2]

Ed:

Your modified post is still wrong.

I have never met anyone who plays more than 5 times a year who hasn't heard of Pasa an SFGC.  And I know WAY WAY WAY more people outside of this forum than in it.

I bet if you asked 1000 golfers who play the game more than 5 times a year if they've heard of Pasa, you'd have at least 750 say hell yes.  Ask here in the Bay Area and it's closer to 950.

The course is well known and is certainly not hidden in any way other than behind trees so you can't see it too well from Highway 17.

 

And anyone who gives a blank stare re Cypress just plain isn't a golfer.  That's silly to even think.  You must hang with a lot of race car drivers or something.  

[John Goodman]

Call this an admission against interest, Tom, but I had played (because I was told where to go) Ballybunion, Portrush, Portstewart, Ro. Co. Down, and a bunch of Scotland courses before I had ever heard of Pasatiempo.  This architecture thing - especially knowledge about the classical period - I believe is confined to a tiny minority of regular golfers.  I bet I could by email put to every one of my buddies with whom I've traveled out of state to play (maybe 15 guys) and not one would have heard of Pasa or know who designed it.  'Course they're all just hicks from Alabama . . .    

[THuckaby2]

John:

Your friends will be part of the nationwide 250 who haven't read a golf magazine in the last 15 years.

 

But ok, perhaps nationwide Pasa isn't as well-known as I imagine.  I will take to my grave, however, that it is well-known here in the Bay Area.

TH

[JakaB]

Huck,

I had never heard of Pasa until Golfclubatlas and I was going out to play Olympic so was looking for someplace else nice to play..but I had never heard of NGLA either...

[THuckaby2]

John - but weren't you glad we made you play there?

 

OK so I'm wrong about it's status nationwide.  I can live with that.  But I am right about how it's known here.  I swear I can't think of a single person I've ever come across who didn't know all about it.  Now only the archy fools tend to care it's a MacKenzie... but everyone knows it's ranked #98 on the Golf Magazine list or whatever....

TH

[Andy Levett]

I thought a hidden gem  was somewhere few golfers interested in courses/architecture had heard of, but would be thrilled  to play if it was brought to their attention.
I also assumed  that was what everybody else understood by the expression - so am interested to see the diverse opinions expressed here.

In the CG Doak said something to the effect that he would be surprised if he had missed many hidden gems and then on an interview on this site five years later cited Brora as the best he had missed.   Brora was a hidden gem  in 1996 but I would  argue it is no longer in  2004 thanks to championing by Malcolm Campbell, Ran and others. Similarly, Painswick was very much a hidden gem before Robin Hiseman (in a UK golf mag) and Paul T on GCA  sung its praises.

I really don't think some of the courses mentioned on this thread  qualify, at least by my definition - Silloth and Little Aston for  example make the GB& I  Top 100 lists. I played West Lancs on Sunday - superb links, no pics and little comment on GCA but hardly a 'hidden gem' if demand from American tourists pushes up the summer green fee to almost £100.

I'd love to discover a hidden gem but have so far failed (one or two  good holes don't count). The man who started this thread seems to have the inside track.

What about it, Paul? Which of the courses you've pictured here most qualifies for the palm? Meyrick Park, Ulverston, Windermere, the Colts around Birmingham whose names  temporarily escape me?

[Andy Levett]

Mark,
   That is very interesting that most golfers over your way don't know about Cruden Bay. Do you think this is a cost driven factor?

Ed,
Mark's one of my GCA heroes but I think that comment of his was overstated - surely this board is not a microcosm of American golfers? I'm sure the name recognition of Cruden Bay would be at least as high at Alderley Edge as Podunk CC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

Hidden Gem = Low Profile

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

For me it would be any course which you just told me about, which I hadn't thought of going to check out, although I may have heard of it before.

A worthwhile trip would be to see any old course which had one or two holes worth seeing, or greens complexes or bunkering worth seeing.

I say old courses, because modern courses seldom have those kinds of features.  It's rare to see a new style of bunkering or greens contouring that's different than I've seen a lot of times before.

[Andy Hughes]

I found a hidden gem here in the DC area, surrounded by all these people, thanks to a suggestion from a GCAer: Glenn Dale.  It is not splashy or flashy, and does not have the cache of some newer area courses such as Whiskey Creek (E. Els).  But what it does have are some very, very good holes that make you think, and some super greens that again make you think about where to go, where not to go, and how to use the slopes to get near a pin.
I only hope it retains its hidden gem status  

[A_Clay_Man]

Pacific Grove is the perfect example of a hidden gem. Low cost, near to Big Name courses. And to top it off, you get to golf the way it is suppose to be, Filled with unpredictable and deceptive influences.

[Jeff Shelman]

To me it means one of two things.

A hidden gem is either a really good course that doesn't receive a lot of attention. In my town (the Twin Cities) that's Oak Ridge IMO. Great track, damn near as good as some of the more name private clubs in town.

The other meaning to me is a public course that is a tremendous value. Maybe it doesn't the same kind of name splash that other places have, but it's a great value. Two that I can think of that I've played in the last year-plus are The Republic in San Antonio. Played there during the Final Four and it was great. It was clearly the best $50 course I played all year. Good shape, interesting holes, etc. I walked out of there that day thinking that I had just had a pretty darn good day of golf. Another place to me (I don't know if Shivas can agree or not) is Piper Glen in Springfield, Ill. Might be the best $30ish course I've ever played.

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