[Mike_Cirba]

MikeC:

Frankly, if you look a bit more closely at the right side of that hole you should notice it's really sandy scrub not 3 foot high hay as you said.

Tom;

If that is truly sandy scrub (adjusting my glasses), then my concerns about the playability of the hole are somewhat mitigated.  I'm thinking of something like PV, or Maidstone, which you mentioned, where it's nasty, and irregular, but where you'll also find your ball (often to your dismay!).

However, I still wonder...wasn't it mentioned that 3 of 4 low-handicappers lost their ball in that stuff?  





Perhaps it just needs a haircut and grooming?  I'd caution, however, from the Cypress Point example, that grass does tend to tend to thrive on dunes and the hole could quickly become sternly one-dimensional and penal given the proximity to the green, the length of the shot, and the flight time from the elevated tee in windy conditions.

[Brian_Gracely]

To those of you that have played the holes (especially #2-3), do you think it's possible to hit driver from #2 tee and make it all the way to #3 fairway?  Just thinking about a cross-country hole that plays something like 700yds and has a heroic carry over the long grass on #2 and the short bunker on #3 (plus the road).  

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I've played #8 Maidstone a lot of times and I can pretty much gurarantee you nobody wants to miss that green and certainly not right. From the look of it in that photo I'd rather miss Bandon Trails #2 right--at least it's above the green. On either hole I sure do hope no one ever thinks about giving that great looking natural rugged ground in that area a "haircut and grooming"!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Wouldn't you agree there's a difference between what you find to the right of Maidstone, or even what you used to find all over at Pine Valley versus the situation described above where 3 of 4 players lost their ball?

However, if the "grooming" means something like what they are presently doing at Pine Valley, I take it back.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom;
Wouldn't you agree there's a difference between what you find to the right of Maidstone, or even what you used to find all over at Pine Valley versus the situation described above where 3 of 4 players lost their ball?"

MikeC:

I would not agree with that--not even close! From what that photo shows me of Bandon Trails #2 to the right I can't really imagine a group losing 3-4 balls.

To me those photos show a course that's really no different than a PVGC or Maidstone or a lot of great European courses. Sure if you hit a ball all over the place you'll lose some. But those courses have been like that forever---golfers have always dealt with it.

However, if the course is public and they plan on doing 50 thousand rounds then sure I can understand making the course much less penal for public golf but it doesn't look to me like Keiser cares about that and I say THANK GOD!

Look, I'm for the "Big World Theory" of golf and architecture and if public golf and public golfers don't want that kind of thing then don't give it to them---but they really are missing an awful lot about the way some really great golf course are and have been forever.

And I'm going to say the very same thing on RJ's thread which seems to have been inspired by this discussion.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

No one has been more of a vocal zealot than I have in arguing against the dumbing down of public golf courses.  I still consider myself a public course golfer and the majority of courses I've played have been of that ilk.

I think we're talking here about findability and recoverability.  If, as you say, that area to the right of the green is simply sandy waste with some high grass clusters growing within, then we are not in disagreement.  I'm basing my statements that it is a bit more of a final solution than that on the previous claim that 3 of 4 low handicappers lost their ball(s) there.  

I can spray it around with the best of them, as you've witnessed, yet never recall losing a ball at Pine Valley or Maidstone.  

That's the only distinction I'm trying to draw here.  If the area to the right of the 2nd hole at Bandon Trails is as much of a jungle as it seems from those who've played it, then I have an issue with the blindness on the left side.  High grass can be even more unforgiving than a pond in the exact same location, given the potential for a stroke and distance lost ball situation...which is one of my only nits to pick with Prairie Dunes, for instance.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, I'll await your comments on the specifics of rough and native grass management on the other thread.

As you say, if Mike Keiser is good with the ramifications of the 3 of 4 low handicappers having the lost ball, problem whereby they looked for a while, then all went back and re-teed, or just played a local rule or agreed among themselves to play from a mutually agreeable placement, which entails frustrating delay in play and pace of the game, then fine, it is Keiser's call!!  

But, what about the low handicappers that encounter this delay and frustration perhaps 2-3 times during their round, and the higher handicappers behind them waiting to tee off, or themselves having this situation 6-8 times a round and the players waiting behind them, whilst they rumage around the native trying to figure out amonst themselves the most agreeable solution of how to continue play (re-tee or play another from point of agreement where it was lost)?

We rarely had that problem at Sand Hills due to the nature of the native being sparse naturally managed by dryer conditions by comparison to the lush undergrowth we see at so many courses that present native grass areas where they get plenty of rain and fert run-off migration and wind blown irrigation drift.  Is it your position Tom that lush rough conditions in that case is just fine for all that want to play a spirited well paced game with appropriate penalty without getting constantly presented with death sentences?

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Take a very close look at that area to the right of #2 BT. To me it looks like 90% sandy area and about 10% grass so high you could really have a hard time finding a golf ball in. I'd say the same thing I am if that area had more than 50% grass where a ball was really impossible to find. I can also pretty much guarantee you that if that group of good players who say they lost 3-4 balls the first time they played that hole came back and played it again (you know what Armour said about blindness only being blind once) they would definitely not lose 3-4 balls. To me this kind of thing would probably encourage MORE players to come back to BT again to get it right the next time than it would discourage them from coming back again at all---and to me that's a lot of my point.

Read what I said to RJ on the other thread. I hate this idea that all public golf courses have to be dumbed down this way just because they're public. I'm not advocating this for all public courses or even most of them but at least give the public one or a few of them that they can play. Some of the best courses I've played in my life are every bit as penal or more than the way that course looks. My favorite hole in the world---Maidstone's #9 is incredibly penal if you miss that pretty narrow fairway. If you do, and playing their for the last 25 years I can tell you probably someone in every other group misses it and loses their ball particularly when its windy.

That's just golf pal, that's the way it is on some of the really wonderful natural courses of the world, and the golfers who've always played them have always seemed to manage somehoew. I say let the public and public golfers experience the same thing, at least in one place in this world.

Maybe we just completely disagree on this general subject but I can pretty much guarantee we're looking at exactly the same spot in that photo and seeing exactly the same thing. When any golfer plays that course for the second time they will know extremely well where to go and where not to unless they want to risk losing a ball just like a lot of the world's great courses.

[TEPaul]

RJ:

I think it's probably best to just let this course open for play and see what happens before we get into determining if what you say in the post above really is the problem you suggest it might be.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I agree with your last point to RJ...we should definitely give them time to open and attend to the details before making judgements and I hope I can get back there soon.   I also agree with your dumbing down for public golf peeve...somewhat ironically, many of the most penal courses I've played have been public simply because they don't have the maintenance budget to clear under trees, create wide corridors, or simply through a desire to create something "challenging" for marketing purposes.

Just on the basis of these pics, and an anecdotal story or two shared here, however, BT presently looks far more penal (in terms of rough) than either of the other courses at Bandon, but that might just be a seasonal opening anomaly.

Here's a few pics of Pacific Dunes for comparison;

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Those photos of Pac Dunes (#6 and #8 right) look a lot different than when I was there just before Pac Dunes officially opened (although we all played the course). I don't like that cleared out look all over the out of play areas anywhere near as much as liked what I saw when I was there--it doesn't look anywhere near as natural vegetatively to me. Does Europe do that to their comparable courses? Certainly not the great ones I saw.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I grabbed those pix from Ran's second visit to PD, I believe, which he has posted under the course profile.

When I played there two March's ago, it wasn't cut quite that low, but my guess is that they periodically go through and cut it down (burn?) to keep it manageable.  

Perhaps someone affiliated with the maintenance of those two wonderful courses might read this and provide some insight.  

[DPL11]

I also generally do not like unrecoverable penalties and that tall grass looks to be a final solution.  It's not much different functionally than a pond, except for the stroke and distance of a lost ball.  

As classic strategists, wouldn't the rest of you like to see something more thoughtful, interesting, and variable to the right of this green than 3 foot tall wheat?    

Mike,

Many times when a course is being grown in, with fescue roughs, it will be grown to a maximum height the first season.

If you look at the course profile done by Ran of Hidden Creek, you will notice that the fescue just off the fairway edges is very high. If you saw the course the second season, it was mowed back to open up the playing corridors.

Bandon Tails might be going through the same type of transition. Next year a lot of that high hay may be mowed down to more traditional mowing heights.

Personally, I like it high in some spots and lower in others. Any new course with these types of turf conditions are a work in progress and need some tinkering. I think many of the little nuiances are lost in all that high grass.

Some superintendents do it that way, and others like to mow fescues low from the start.

 

[Bill_McBride]

The shot of #2 there looks like one of the great "found" holes.  It doesn't look like any dirt was moved other than leveling the green pad.  Can't wait!

I'm now a semi-official Oregonian.  Bought a condo in Portland yesterday and will be joining 1925 Vernon McCan (sp?) as a non-resident member in the very near future.

So Bandon trips will start from closer!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

A GREAT course and a great buy Panhandle Bill! (I know which course you are talking about!   )

Hopefully you got a view of one of America's more beautiful cities. Lots of bridges and lots of breweries too! Also one of the great book stores in America--Powell's Books.

[Bill_McBride]

You're right, Tommy, I left out the name of the course, which is Columbia Edgewater CC, a beautiful layout just south of the Columbia River.  I loved the tumbling and rolling fairways on a fairly flat site.  It is a great walking course with wonderful bent greens.  Maybe I was sold by the fact that I made every putt I looked at!  The course is pretty hemmed in by 80 years of overplanting trees, including hundreds of Giant Sequoias (!), but they are planning some thinning and I will pack along my mini chain saw.  

There is really good movement in so many fairways, and a bit of up and down, but overall there is little elevation change from #1 tee to #18 green.  Some areas there is as much change within a hole as #14's swale at Pasatiempo.

I am really looking forward to summers in Portland and the rest of the year in Pensacola, with a few good GCA golf trips thrown in for good measure.  And only 5 hrs from Bandon!

You are right about Portland.  It reminds me of San Francisco in the 60's and earlier.  Bridges, walks, it's a great town to explore.

Erdmann, Pittock, Bandoon and I will have to get you up for a visit!

[TEPaul]

You know it sure would be a great education in architecture if they took photos from the proposed tees of all the holes and hole corridors of BT before they touched the site or any of its trees or vegetation. I sure hope they did.  

[peter_p]

Just got back from Bandon, forgot the camera. I had a chance to walk the seven holes with Grant Rogers, the Director of Instruction. No clubs. The entry to the clubhouse/proshop is directly opposite the Lily Pond cottages,
and the first tee is atop a dune which overlooks the hazard to the right of Bandon Dunes 18.
1,2 and 18 are different from the other hole in that they are surrounded by dunes and dune grass. The other holes are forested, with scrub undergrowth. Tee shots into the forest will likely be findable, but unplayable or difficult recovery.
        By the time I reached the first fairway I had already concluded the black (back) tees are unplayble for me, with my 195 carry distance not being able to reach the sort grass.
The approach will be from an uineven lie to an higher green with little chance of recovery if you're off line or long.
        John Daly could not reach the third fairway from even the forward tees on #2.
        If you look at Mike Cirba's large picture of #2 on page three, the background shows a large ridge maybe 75' high, which has a N/S orientation. I have not seen a routing, but can glean this surmise from what I have seen.
#5 is a wild Biarritz green, where an ex PGA tour pro has already putted off the green into the front bunker. I expect Ladbrook to set up a branch office to bet on how many putts, or at least bleachers and a beer concession.
#1, S at 395 yds
#2, S at 213 yds
#3  S at 554 yds.
#4  N at 403 yds
#5, E at 126 yds
#6  NNE at 415  yds, just hydroseeded,
#s 7-13 will work north, east south around the large ridge, which peters out in height as you go north, and it is negligible when you get to the Lily Pond cottage area.
#14 is 320, teeing from ridge top and heading west
#15 N  at 400
#16 NNE and distinctly uphill with strong tilted green.
#17 NW at 162, but it has a back (tournament?) tee which is about 185-190.
#18 N at 428.
#5 is a wild Biarritz green, where an ex PGA tour pro has already putted off the green into the front bunker. I expect Ladbrook to set up a branch office to bet on how many putts, or at least bleachers and a beer concession.

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