Is the architecture of Cuscowilla that much better than at Friars Head...

[JakaB]

Given the clearly better and more interesting site that Friars Head sits on and comparing the fact that Cuscowilla sits at 13 on the Modern list while Friars is only two places higher at 11....is it safe to assume either, iether, neither or nor that..

a.  Somethings up
b.  Coore and Crenshaw did better work with the land at Cuscowilla
c.  Cuscowilla is vastly overrated
d.   Friars Head is underrated

Does anybody really believe we are going to see the 13th best course built since 1960 this weekend at Cuscowilla....

[John_Conley]

Barney:

There are often aberrations between one man's opinion and any of the ranking lists.  If it turns out they are not aberrations and are shared by a lot more than one man you will see things shift to reflect that.

Cuscowilla is a very good minimalist design.  It rates ahead of Chechessee Creek and behind Sand Hills in my book.  I'm not sure if it is better or worse than Kapalua Plantation, whose site resembles one of those distorting carnival mirrors, but it is certainly worth seeing for members of this site.

Does it really matter to anyone that one course is two spots - a spread that is not statistically significant - ahead of the other?  If it does, just cut them both out on your Golfweek copy and paste them back in opposite order.

Have not seen Friar's Head.  I'm sure it is terrific.

[Mike Hendren]

John,

There's only one explanation:  Regional bias.

Mike

[JakaB]

Conley says that 11 and 13 are equals and interchangeable....my gut tells me that I would stand one hell of a less chance being dissapointed if this event were being held at Friars Head as opposed to Cuscowilla.   I can't get past my gut.....Is the only reason my gut would prefer Friars because of the visuals...is the architecture really that close...or should Friars Head be top 5 and Cuscowilla top 25 at best...

[cary lichtenstein]

Friar's Head should be top 5, it is just wonderful.

Cuscowilla is underwhelming by a lot.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've played them both and would choose "C" Cuscowilla is vastly overrated. The fact that it doesn't make the top 100 on Golf Digest list seems somebody is cooking the books at GolfWeek?   It just doesn't make any sense.

[RSLivingston_III]

Joel-
Personally, I think that Golfweek and Golf Digest compliment each other well in giving us a valid assessment of course standings. I view GD as this fat and happy slower moving orginization that takes a while to affect change, where Golfweek is leaner and meaner and can affect changes rapidly. Kingsley is a great example not unlike Cuscowilla. Rated #22 at Golfweek and not even on the radar at GD. Go figure.
R

[JakaB]

Ralph,

One of the obvious faults in the Golfweek system is that its raters are much more influenced by peer pressure than the guys from Golf Digest.  Time and time again you see Golfweek raters lobby for their new favorite child...Hell, I rembember a time when guys would come on here and actually discuss the shortcomings of Kingsley before it became taboo to say a bad word about the place.....we all know about the secret email spamathons to get a favorite on the list....not to mention a little website known as GolfweekClubAtlas.....

[Doug Sobieski]

I certainly feel that it is by no means overrated (it's been as high as #9 on the list a couple years ago). I think Conley explains it well when discussing how close the numbers really are when it comes to specific places on the list.

It is an amazing test of strategy, and when one considers how little they spent to build the course, it will blow your mind! I always put Cuscowilla in the category of Modern Marvels.

[JakaB]

Doug,

So do you see Friars Head and Cuscowilla as equals...

[RJ_Daley]

I'm not going to think about numerics.  I'm going to think about the merits of the golf course relative to more general impressions.  Is it among the best I've seen, pretty good, average, or disappointing considering craftsmanship of design-construction and playability.  I couldn't care less if it has a certain numeric position relative to FRiars Head (which I've not seen) or Sand Hills or other C&C courses.  They are all way too different in their land characteristics and user profiles.

John, I don't dismiss your question, if you are really interested in an answer, and not just trying to stir up a pissing match between tribes of golf course raters.

1.  I assume something is always up in the ratings game.

2.  If the land was more unremarkable at Cusco, and yet the craftsmanship and playability is there, then C&C AND THEIR CREW possibly did better and more construction work.  Yet routing and design concepts need significant amount of play on both to say more definitively... don't you think?

3.  Over rated?  vastly, perhaps by one tribe of raters with an agenda.
4. Under rated?  vastly, perhaps by another tribe of raters with a different agenda.

How important do those questions loom for you to have a great time there?

[RSLivingston_III]

Although neither system is perfect, as if perfect was possible, I think the two systems when viewed side by side give a better assessment of a courses true placement. If you know how both groups rate courses, you can make a better judgement than looking at one or the other. And especially so if you aren't strictly architecture oriented in your likes for a golf experience.

[Doug Sobieski]

John:

I haven't seen Friar's Head but I've seen almost all of the rest that are higher than Cuscowilla on the most recent list, as well as many below it (19 of the top 30, in case you need justification for my position). I don't think a change in either direction by a couple positions makes much difference. It's a coin flip when you are comparing 11 to 13, or whatever it is.

In regard to what RJ said, I think that given the site at Cuscowilla, C & C created something really amazing!!!

[Mike Hendren]

Dick,

Never fear. Barney will have spent several hours in the car with me prior to his arrival at Cuscowilla.  I'm confident that the subtleness of Ross and boldness of Raynor will do wonders to take his edge off as well.  That and an interesting theological discussion or two.  If all else fails, I've been brewing some shine in an abandoned automobile radiator that should numb him considerably.  

Look forward to seeing you.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

And regarding:

"trying to stir up a pissing match between tribes of golf course raters"...

now I'm not all that up on who does what for whom, but if I'm not the only GD rater attending this event, it's a very short list anyway... especially compared to the LEGIONS of GW raters who will be in attendance....

I guess I'm gonna have to drink a lot of beer to have enough piss to compete.

 

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jaka,

I think the real question is if you will drop your antagonist role here at GCA after meeting all these people face to face ?

[JakaB]

What is the C&C gimmick at Cuscowilla....It seems that every C&C course has some gimmick that is not related to how the ball bounces but still enough related to architecture that it pleases the quasi golf intellectual....is it the orange sand or something even more subtle than that...

[JakaB]

Jaka,

I think the real question is if you will drop your antagonist role here at GCA after meeting all these people face to face ?

Mike,

I think I have already met most of the people on this site....   I wish MacWood was coming..

[JakaB]

David,

I don't need to see Friars Head to know how cool it is....that is why I find it insulting to say Friars Head and Cuscowilla are a toss up because of one being 11 and the other being 13 when I doubt that much about Cuscowilla will truly be inspiring.   One guy above spoke of the strategy of Cuscowilla.....do you really think that at 6,800 yds and in November I will do much more than aim for the middle of the fairway and hit driver as hard and high as possible....I'm struggling to get an interesting thread started on the place....can you imagine the buzz if we were all going to Friars Head this weekend....it would be deafening...

[JakaB]

Ten million percent times 911.....that would be 9 billion 110 million percent...

[THuckaby2]

Not that this matters, but....

Would the buzz really be defeaning if we were going to Friar's Head?

Not many people, even in this august well-travelled group, have played Friar's Head.  So sure, you few who have could go nuts trying to tell us how great it is, but what could the rest of us say besides "cool, sounds great, can't wait to see it"  And given how universally beloved the place is by those who HAVE seen it, well... I go back to my response there.  What more could we say?

That's not a buzz to me.

A buzz was when we were all going to play Rustic Canyon, seen by many, discussed by all.  

As for this weekend, hell I could be going down to play Athens GA executive muni and I'd be excited.  The matches and camraderie mean way more to me than the venue.

BUT... I also don't expect Cuscowilla to suck.

 

[TEPaul]

E/ When one considers anything at all about rankings there's only one thing that's logical to assume and that is that the magazine and its raters and rankers have their heads wedged---as per usual!

[Andy Hughes]

As for this weekend, hell I could be going down to play Athens GA executive muni and I'd be excited.  The matches and camraderie mean way more to me than the venue.

How many years will I need to frequent this board before I see TomH say, "The course really sucked, the day was dull, I didn't enjoy myself, I wish I had stayed home and mowed the grass"?
 

[John_Cullum]

I'll chime in. The thing that makes Cuscowilla better than the other 6 or 8 courses in the immediate area are the green contours. Other than that, its pretty much just another decent route through the Georgia Piedmont, offset by some really weird pine trees that were some sort of Dr. Frankenstein's nursery experiment.

It has a really good looking short par 4 (5th), a very long par 3 (8th) a ridiculously long par 5 (13th?). A couple shorter par 4's, a short 3, and demanding long 4's to finish both sides.

The orange bunkers are different looking, and there are the furry bunker surrounds as well, probably the first in the Southeast in modern times.

I dont know squat about Friars Head, but it sounds very good-and it has the elusive quality that Cuscowilla dont.

[THuckaby2]

As for this weekend, hell I could be going down to play Athens GA executive muni and I'd be excited.  The matches and camraderie mean way more to me than the venue.

How many years will I need to frequent this board before I see TomH say, "The course really sucked, the day was dull, I didn't enjoy myself, I wish I had stayed home and mowed the grass"?
 

I know when that will happen: the day we get together and play croquet instead of golf.  And even then, it would take a bunch of pretty dull stiffs in a dry county to get me to say that.

I do kinda like playing this game.  Just a little.