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DMoriarty

A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« on: October 19, 2004, 09:24:22 PM »
Quite a while back, I told a few posters that I would elaborate on a couple of issues regarding Rustic Canyon:
1.  Maintenance, over-watering in particular.
2.   What are Rustic Canyon's weaknesses.  

At the risk of further infuriating those who dont like RC posts, I'll try to address these issues as promised.

Maintenance.  
By far the biggest problem at Rustic has been keeping the course playing as firm and as fast as it should be.  For the first year or year or so, this wasnt much of a problem at all, as the sandy soil seemed to drink up as much water as the course could throw on it.  However, recently the problem has come to a head, particularly on the tightly mowed aprons, and less so on the fairways.  

-- The Aprons.
  While all the Rustic regulars agreed that over time the approaches had become much too soft and wet, we disagreed what should and could be done about it.  The obvious answer seemed to be to water less, but unfortunately nothing is so simple at RC . . .  
  When the course was built 360 degree sprinklers were installed instead of the 180 degree sprinklers recommended by the designers and super.  So the fringes always got as much water as the greens, even though they needed a fraction of the water.   And as time went on this resulted in some pretty soggy aprons.
   [As I understand it, non-native pure sand was used for the green base (I think against the designers wishes) while native sand was used for the approach base.  So while water runs right through the greens, it tends to stick around in the soil of the approaches.  As water often sat in the aprons their base became saturated and damaged, and the problem worsened to the point that some became soggy with the addition of little or no irrigation water.]
   Finally earlier this fall the course replaced heads with half heads around every green and already most of the aprons are playing more like they used to.  (A few havent completely recovered but seem to be slowly drying out.)

--  The Fairways.  
The fairways are very rarely soggy, but the grass is much greener and healthier than it needs to be.  To be more specific, some fairways have symmetrical rows of firm and dry spots surrounded by lush green grass.  
  Unfortunately (again) the cure is not as easy as turning off the faucet.  (They tried this briefly and the dry spots died . . . the photos are pretty amazing.)   As I understand it, the problem is that the sprinkler heads haven't performed as expected-- they dont throw water far enough to reach the next head.   To compensate, the crew often irrigates more than is needed in the hopes that some of it will seep and/or blow onto these dry spots.  
  The obvious answer is to replace the heads, and supposedly that will happen in the near future.  Unfortunately, the near future seems to be much longer than I expected.  [I've heard rumors that the manufacturer has agreed to do this free of charge, but I dont know if this is true or what part this plays in the delay.]  Anyway, it hasnt happened yet and the problem has been apparent for quite some time now.  

-- General Comments on Maintenance.

  Some of you may be detecting a pattern, and may be correct in doing so.  Fixes have been slow in coming to what seem to be some fairly straightforward problems.   (For another example, it inexplicably took a couple of years to get the computer irrigation system going, so they could be more specific about watering only where needed.)  
  From the outside, it looks as if the course really doesnt like to spend money on the course itself.   The maintenance guys appear to work their butts off, and the super appears to be doing everything he can to appropriately maintain the place.  Yet there don't seem to be many workers (seems like they have less than ten guys) and I am not sure the management gives them everything they need.  (Not sure they have the best equipment to accomplish some necessary maintenance, like punching the fairways, aprons, mowing rough, etc.)  Not only does the detail work suffer, but even the regular maintenance suffers.  In fact, I think they crew is so thinly staffed that they only mow fairways only a few times a week.  
  Fortunately, the site and course are very forgiving.  The drainage (basically surface drainage I think) works very well with only a few minor exceptions, and the sandy base is incredible.  The course can take plenty of water and still feel firm under foot.  For example, we played immediately after 1 1/4 inches of rain on Sunday morning and while there was still surface water in some lowspots and drainage spots, the course still felt firm under foot.
  That being said, the real maintenance issue at Rustic will be whether those who control the course will provide the super and crew the support they need to keep the course in the appropriate condition over the long run.  

I'll hopefully get to my design critique later.  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 09:25:00 PM by DMoriarty »

Brian_Gracely

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2004, 09:30:29 PM »
David,

Just for reference, how firm were the collars during KPIII?  They seemed fairly firm, but of course that's only a viewpoint of one weekend.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2004, 09:48:56 PM »
So....do you think  players will accept higher greenfees to add  more staff to maintenance?

If you want your golf course green, just cover it in dollar bills.

In the same light, if you want it to play "on the edge" every day, you better be prepared to cover it in Abe Lincolns.
"chief sherpa"

DMoriarty

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2004, 11:06:23 PM »
David,

Just for reference, how firm were the collars during KPIII?  They seemed fairly firm, but of course that's only a viewpoint of one weekend.

Brian, I know the fairways and roughs were unusually lush and green-- too much grass everywhere, more and deeper rough than ever, I think.   But to be honest I am not sure I remember exactly the firmness of the collars.   I seem to recall that the greens were by no means firm and fast. . .  and I'll take a stab and say that the aprons were softer than ideal but by no means wet and soggy.  In fact I think it was around that time that the collars started to significantly soften, leading to wet and soggy much later.

On Saturday I recall thinking that the course conditions were ideal for scoring, except for the brutal rough (which shouldnt have been like that.)  I know we had some wind on Sunday, so it was likely dryer and firmer.

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to a firm and fast ideal at RC . . . I've seen some posts wishing Rustic was concrete-like firm and fast like Wildhorse apparently is.  Except for maybe a few isolated spells when the course first opened, I dont think the course has ever been close to this extreme when it comes to firm and fast.  Nor do I think it should be.  I think that the course would verge on unplayable if it were too firm or too fast.

Pete,  

I dont think the slim maintenence staffing and budget is a result of a lack of revenue.   I'd be very surprised if higher green fees resulted in a better maintained course.  [As an aside, it is possible that the trouble with the aprons led to a slight drop in play, which may have convinced the management to finally install the new sprinklers.

Added later:

I havent played Wildhorse but I am taking peoples word for it that Wildhorse plays very firm and fast.  

Also, to put in perspective, in early March (before the KP, and before the collars started to really go downhill) I went to Oregon with a few RC regulars and we all agreed that Rustic usually played at least as firm and fast as Pacific, and was probably a bit firmer and faster around the greens.  [We'd all played PD on a just a few trips.]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 11:12:40 PM by DMoriarty »

TEPaul

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 11:20:46 PM »
David Moriarty:

Isn't it true to say that the guys that designed and built Rustic Canyon basically knew that the guys who own and maintain the golf course may not take care of it the way it should be or wouldn't even know how to?

That was surely my feeling even before the golf course was built. You guys who play it regularly have the responsiblity to see that it's maintained the way it should be, or like you want it to be, like any other courses with the people who play them. The guys that designed and built the golf course, like any private golf course or any course for that matter, are on to other things now!

DMoriarty

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 11:58:13 PM »
Isn't it true to say that the guys that designed and built Rustic Canyon basically knew that the guys who own and maintain the golf course may not take care of it the way it should be or wouldn't even know how to?

I dont know what the designers "basically knew" and am not going to speculate.  

Remember that Rustic is pretty unique for this area, so I am sure this has been a learning experience for everyone involved.  But the super (Jeff Hicks) was there during construction and grow in, and without a doubt he knows the intent of the designers better than anyone else there.  In fact I have seen him out on the course showing his crew photographs of courses which were properly maintained, so that they would better understand his expectations.  And I am confident that he has the know-how to maintain the course properly if it were left up to him alone.  While the weapons at his disposal are severely limited, no doubt he is trying to fight the good fight.  

 
Quote
You guys who play it regularly have the responsiblity to see that it's maintained the way it should be, or like you want it to be, like any other courses with the people who play them.

I mean no disrespect, but I sometimes wonder if you may be somewhat naive regarding what goes on outside the confines of equity memberships.  We do what we can, but for the most part we would be kidding ourselves if we had the power to see to it that the course is maintained properly.  Fixing other golfers' ball marks and patting the Super and his crew on the back may be my two largest maintenance contributions.  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 11:58:32 PM by DMoriarty »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2004, 01:47:36 AM »
David,
I want to set something straight.

"The Designers" of the golf course were not responsible for the design of the irrigation system. The owner and his representative-John Prespytewski were the one's that made that decision.

The irrigation contractor was the guy who used to do all of Billy Bell's work--Charlie (last name escaping me at the moment.) (I had suggested Larry Rogers, but Charlie and his crew were chosen and did an excellent job at Rustic Canyon. (They were more then just an irrigation contractor in some sense.)

Normally, one would think it would have been a group decision between the course architects, the superintendent--Jeff Hicks, the turf consultant who spent a lot of time out there and was so busy I never saw him, ;) and the Toro rep who I would assume would have conversed with the irrigation contractor (Charlie) and with the owner's representative--John Prespytewski.

That paticular name is the one that bares the most scrutiny here--John Prespytewski.

Trust me when I say this, this guy is an accident waiting to happen, and he is currently overseeing the building Silver Rock Ranch for the City of La Quinta, so look for a few holes to fall into the All-American Canal or something.  

Prespytewski's reputation preceeds him as he was the Polish General in charge of Ocean Trails G.C. in Palos Verdes, and acheived fame when he rode a tractor and the 18th hole, +/- 60 feet down into the Pacific Ocean.

He was the one that demanded the 360 degree heads. Not Gil Hanse, Geoff Shackelford, Jim Wagner, Jeff Hicks or Charlie.

If there ever was a Owners Representative that could wear a Bozo wig and shoes, it's John Prespytewski. In fact, if there was a emoticon that was a Bozo face, I would put it by his name everytime.

Aptly put, John P. is no Pete Galea........ ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 01:56:41 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

DMoriarty

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2004, 02:09:59 AM »
Tommy, I did mention that the designers and super recommended directional sprinklers.

That aside, I didnt start the post to cast blame or assign fault.  Rather, I had said I would expand on the bigger picture issue at Rustic, and this is it.   So I will sit out the particulars on who wanted what, etc.   I wasnt there so I am a poor source for such gossip anyways.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2004, 02:34:48 AM »
David, Sorry for the misread......Well, lets just chalk this one up as now everyone will know who exactly was responsible............

THuckaby2

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2004, 10:57:18 AM »
Dave:  great stuff, many thanks.  No topic about Rustic is ever without interest here.  So many have played it, and it crystallizes so many issues facing golf today, it needs to be discussed more, not less.

But I have a question, regarding:


One thing to keep in mind when it comes to a firm and fast ideal at RC . . . I've seen some posts wishing Rustic was concrete-like firm and fast like Wildhorse apparently is.  Except for maybe a few isolated spells when the course first opened, I dont think the course has ever been close to this extreme when it comes to firm and fast.  Nor do I think it should be.  I think that the course would verge on unplayable if it were too firm or too fast.

I am one of the ones - maybe the only one - who wished for Rustic to be VERY firm and fast, as Wild Horse was when I played it.  I just think it would be very fun that way.  Where do you see it as being unplayable?  I'm not doubting that it could be such, just prevailing upon your wisdom and knowledge of the course, to help me understand it better.

TH
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 01:13:20 PM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2004, 11:22:49 AM »
DavidM:

I doubt I'm naive about whatever the conditions may be at Rustic Canyon that may not live up to the expectations of those that play golf there such as yourself. All I know is what I learned from someone like Geoff Shackelford who probably had as much to do with the overall concept of Rustic Canyon as anyone. Geoff certainly had and has some pretty strong feelings about the way that course should be maintained but it was always my sense that he felt those who own and run that golf course may not have those same feeling or worse yet even understand them. I've never even seen Rustic Canyon built. The fear that the course may not be maintained the way it should be was something that apparently concerned him before they even built Rustic Canyon. I very much doubt it's the superintendent he's thinking of in this vein. He's not the one who pays the bills at Rustic Canyon, is he?

THuckaby2

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2004, 11:31:03 AM »
TEP:

I don't think David means you are naive about any of that.  What he is questioning is whether you understand how little influence any player - even a very regular, very much in-the-know player like David - has at a public golf course.  The answer is exactly as he says:  

"We do what we can, but for the most part we would be kidding ourselves if we had the power to see to it that the course is maintained properly.  Fixing other golfers' ball marks and patting the Super and his crew on the back may be my two largest maintenance contributions."

So he's not questioning whether the course is maintained how the architects want it to be maintained... what he's questioning is if you may be naive when you say:

"You guys who play it regularly have the responsiblity to see that it's maintained the way it should be, or like you want it to be, like any other courses with the people who play them."

Does that make better sense?  

I'm a public course player myself - not nearly as regular anywhere as David is at Rustic, but enough at Santa Teresa near me... and I know it's pissing in the wind if I think I can effect or change maintenance practices.  The owners do what they want, when they want, how they want.  So long as the tee sheet is full, why should they do any differently?

And don't even suggest "voting with one's feet."  That's biting off one's nose to spite one's face beyond what at least I am willing to do.

TH

A_Clay_Man

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2004, 11:45:48 AM »
You're kidding right? The guy responsible for Ocean Trails is still getting work? And I think I'll go ballistic every time that La Quinta course gets mentioned.
WHAT A SCAM!

When are they going to start planting trees at RC? Rows and rows of trees would look nice, huh? And surely they will suck-up all that extra water. :'( and add strategy.

At least you guys had it good for a little while.

TEPaul

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2004, 12:30:57 PM »
TomH:

You're right in what you say in your last post regarding a remark like mine that those who play Rustic Canyon, like David, have the responsibility to get things done how they think they should be done.

Of course they don't exactly have that responsibility or that kind of influence--or at least they don't think they do at this point. I suppose it's just the owners of Rustic that do things the way they think best.

But we at a private club like mine who are responsible for taking care of the golf course do what we think best only to the extent we can convince our membership that they'll feel what we do will increase their enjoyment of the course.

In a real sense David could do the same thing we do with the owners of Rustic Canyon. To do that he'll need to convince the owner that the things he recommends really will increase the enoyment of those who come through the gates and perhaps ultimately bring more golfers through the gates because of those things he recommends.

So it's not that different really. Both of us need to convince those that use the course that what we propose will increase their enjoyment. We need to do that with most all our members. David may be able to do that simply by convincing the owners of Rustic.

THuckaby2

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2004, 12:38:22 PM »
TEP:

I ought not to and will not speak for David.  I just wasn't sure when he'd check back in, so I tried to clarify what I thought he meant so you wouldn't have to wait.  I see he is back on-line now, so he can and likely will speak for himself re the realities at Rustic Canyon specifically.

Re the issue in general, I believe the key difference is that as a member of an equity private club, you own the place, so you necessarily have to be listened to.  No owner of a public course has any reason to listen to any individual golfer, so long as his tee sheets are full.  I just plain don't see how I could have any influence on the owner or manager of Santa Teresa, for example (it's owned by the city but run by a private entity under a long-term lease).  The place is always packed - why does he care if I want it to be firmer and faster and remove a few trees (which I do)?  Why should he listen to me?  I really think I could talk until I'm blue in the face and it would make no difference.  In the end, I am faced with the same situation as Dave at Rustic, although I doubt I'd pat the super on the back, because he wants it wet and lush also.

TH
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 12:55:07 PM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2004, 02:30:11 PM »
TomH:

When a public golf course is packed I surely do doubt any customer would have much influence in convincing any owner to do anything different--certainly little influence in convincing him perhaps he should spend more money. If the course is packed isn't that pretty much all a public course owner cares about?

THuckaby2

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2004, 02:33:37 PM »
TomH:

When a public golf course is packed I surely do doubt any customer would have much influence in convincing any owner to do anything different--certainly little influence in convincing him perhaps he should spend more money. If the course is packed isn't that pretty much all a public course owner cares about?

Yes.

That's exactly the point, Tom.  And unfortunately, I live in an area absolutely starved for decent, affordable public golf, with one of the worst course per-capita rates in the nation.  So although my beloved Santa Teresa would undoubtedly be more fun to play with some thoughtful maintenance changes, what's in it for the manager to bother to do so?  The answer is, nothing.

I'm guessing David faces similar issues at Rustic, but that is not for me to say.

TH

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2004, 03:03:17 PM »
I have no intimate knowledge of the finances of RC but let's do some armchair quarterbacking ...

Points to consider:

- large fire last fall resulting in lost revenue and cost to restore the facility.

- flash flood this winter/spring resulting in lost revenue and cost to restore the facility

I suspect that everything is green in the owner/operator's eyes, and the shortfall of revenue and additional expense incurred has affected his financial well being and therefore not as green as he would like.  Therefore, he may choose to cut back on the maintenance staff, equipment budget, etc.

The issue of the 360 vs. part circle heads during irrigation installation is a confusing one.  The cost difference between the 2 heads is minimal and I assumet that they used valve-in-head units so there would be no difference in the installation costs.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

George_Williams

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2004, 03:54:58 PM »
Mike B.-

The irrigation deal they are referring to is substituting 2 PC heads for each full circle- one throwing into the green, one throwing out to the collar, or surrounds.  So the cost would be quite a difference- say 5 heads/green X 19 X $700 (installed, inc. head, pipe, wire, controllers, labor, etc.) = $66,500.00!  If they are large greens, this is prob. conservative.  See what I mean?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2004, 04:07:58 PM »
Mike B.-

The irrigation deal they are referring to is substituting 2 PC heads for each full circle- one throwing into the green, one throwing out to the collar, or surrounds.  So the cost would be quite a difference- say 5 heads/green X 19 X $700 (installed, inc. head, pipe, wire, controllers, labor, etc.) = $66,500.00!  If they are large greens, this is prob. conservative.  See what I mean?

Yes, in that example, you are correct.  I was assuming that there were already 2-heads installed operating independent (valve in head) cycles (both watering 360).

In your case, wouldn't they need to run additional wires to heads to have independent watering cycles? (unless they are using a remote wireless setup ...).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 04:09:53 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2004, 06:27:06 PM »
Sorry, as sometimes happens I lost my thread for a while.  

I am one of the ones - maybe the only one - who wished for Rustic to be VERY firm and fast, as Wild Horse was when I played it.  I just think it would be very fun that way.  Where do you see it as being unplayable?  I'm not doubting that it could be such, just prevailing upon your wisdom and knowledge of the course, to help me understand it better.

Three main reasons why I dont think RC should be maintained extremely firm/fast:
1.  The slope.  While the grade looks pretty flat, from the 13th green to the 4th green the course drops 250+ feet in elevation. To give you a real world idea of the drop, 20 story buildings are around 250 ft. high (I think.)  I've seen how the down canyon holes play when Rustic is somewhat firm, and I am not sure how one would control their ball at all if it was concrete-like firm and fast.
2.  The greens.   Many of the down canyon greens (or green portions) slope with the canyon and away from the line of play.   If the course were too firm and fast virtually every ball would run right through them.  (Remember the USOpen?)  Also, the greens have some fairly large undulations and there are virtually no flat spots;  if they were too fast then golfers would be putting all day.
3.  The options.  In order for RC's strategy to be effective, the various options must be more than just illusory.   Take our much discussed No. 2.  If the golfer goes right on the drive, then with a good shot and a little luck it is still possible for the golfer to get their ball onto to the green.  So the golfer has a real choice, risk the OB on the drive and get a good angle, or play it safe and face a very difficult but possible shot.  
    In contrast, if the hole played with concrete-like firmness, even short approaches from the right would almost always end up in the weeds long, or in the bunkers well short.  So the only realistic way to get on the green in two would be to play left, along the OB, then bank it into the green from the better angle.
___________________

TEPaul:  Tom accurately described the dilemna we face at Rustic.  We do what we can, but have little influence over how things are done.  The only thing that may have helped is when play dropped slightly this summer when the the aprons were so wet.  
____________________

Mike Benham said
Quote
I suspect that everything is green in the owner/operator's eyes, and the shortfall of revenue and additional expense incurred has affected his financial well being and therefore not as green as he would like.  Therefore, he may choose to cut back on the maintenance staff, equipment budget, etc.
This is a viable theory, but I dont think applicable here. Rather, from my perspective it seems that the management has been slow in comprehending the concept and quality of their course.  Further, they seem to favor a lean approach to resource allocation, especially when it comes to maintenance.

Mike and George Williams:
As strange as it may seem, Mike is correct on this one.  There are already dual heads in place-- one was supposed to be for the green and the other for the approach.  But for whatever reason, they were not equipped with 180 degree sprinklers.
____________________

An aside. Tom Doak recently explained an approach to me which might avoid this dilemna:  Build the approaches with the same base as your greens.  This way the greens and approaches will drain at a similar rate so only one head is needed for both.   Also, there will be less annoying heads directly in the line of play.   If I recall correctly, Tom said he did this at the Rawls Course, and commented that it was virtually impossible to get those fringes soggy.

I believe this is precisely what the designers planned to do at RC--  Use the native sand for both the greens and approaches in order to create this uniformity of condition.  But they were apparently overruled.

Hopefully Tom D. or someone will correct me if I garbled what he told me.  

Don_Mahaffey

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2004, 02:05:51 AM »
It is always more cost effective to build it right the first time. The cost to put in part circle heads during construction is nothing compared to the cost to do it later.

Now I'm going to say something that will probably draw an argument from any irrigation designers and even some supts. who might be lurking. IMO, back to back part circle heads are overrated and not worth the extra cost, unless the growing mediums and grass types are very different! If for instance, your growing bent greens on a high perc sand because you've got shitty water and you need to move a lot of salts through the greens profile AND your growing bermuda on clay around the greens then yeah, I vote for back to back part circles. But, if your growing similar grasses (in this case doesn't RC have bent surrounds?) on somewhat similar soil profiles (isn't the soil at RC primarily sand?) I think a deep infrequent irrigation program could produce firm conditions and good turf most of the time.

But, irrigation management is just one part of the equation. For heavens sake, RC is like brand new! If the system isn't right and the maintenance dept. is understaffed and underfunded it will be very tough to have good consistent conditions. And that's a shame because it's a great course and So Cal could use about another dozen courses like it.

THuckaby2

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2004, 09:54:11 AM »
David M:

Muchas gracias for the explanations of why extreme firm and fast wouldn't work at Rustic.  But man, I gotta tell ya, as I read what you say, my reaction is that yes, you are correct... but damn it would be FUN to try!  

So sure, you couldn't keep it this way ALL the time, because people would get tired of the futility brought upon them.

But what about as a few times a year change of pace?  Man it sounds fun to me.

Which is really what I meant when I asked for this long ago.... not that it should be kept this way all the time, just some times.

But of course the wind tends to take care of that, so maybe that's enough.

TH

TEPaul

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2004, 12:05:39 PM »
David Moriarty:

I'd venture to say that if you played some of the older courses with some real slope and contour to them when they are fast and firm throughout you'd very likely not say the things you just did about Rustic Canyon if it was firm and fast throughout. Concrete conditions are not something anyone recommends or thinks about in this context so you shouldn't use that description when imagining really interesting and challenging firm and fast conditions for golf.

DMoriarty

Re:A Lingering Question about Rustic Canyon: Maintenance.
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2004, 12:28:30 PM »
David Moriarty:

I'd venture to say that if you played some of the older courses with some real slope and contour to them when they are fast and firm throughout you'd very likely not say the things you just did about Rustic Canyon if it was firm and fast throughout. Concrete conditions are not something anyone recommends or thinks about in this context so you shouldn't use that description when imagining really interesting and challenging firm and fast conditions for golf.

TomPaul, are you sure your post should be addressed to me?  If so, I am confused since you and I seem to be in agreement on this issue.  

Tom H.   There is plenty of variation in the turf conditions with changes in season, wind, rain, etc.   And the course can get pretty exciting without being conrete.   Come down when it is on the firm side and you'll see this for yourself.    

I see no reason to intentionally push the course to the point of Shinnecock-like absurdity.