Are we far from an artifical turf golf course?

[Brian_Gracely]

Driving ranges have had turf mats for years, but the "Future of Architecture" thread brought up the issue of water conservation again.  Considering all the types of artificial turfs that exist there days, and how they can be modified with sand or water to create various firmness levels (we used to have them on the practice range at Wake Forest), I wonder how long it will be before an urban developer decides to create a artifical turf course?  

Yes, it would be strange to begin with, but so was turf for football or baseball.  I'm not endorsing the idea, I just wonder when it will happen.

[Paul Richards]

brian

there is actually one in the planning phases as outlined in a golfweek article recently.

[Mike Benham]

Yes, it would be strange to begin with, but so was turf for football or baseball.  I'm not endorsing the idea, I just wonder when it will happen.

The biggest obstacle I see is creating the turf (and sub-turf) to act like real turf when receiving a golf shot ... fairway bounces and rolls will be incredible.

[shanew]

there is a a golf course in colorado that has gone all field turf...

http://www.echobasin.com/golf.htm

[Brian_Gracely]

Paul - I'll need to go find the article.

But would this be such a bad thing?

- No need for expensive golf shoes
- Low maintenance costs (and probably land costs) = lower greens fees
- Firm and fast conditions
- No need for cart paths
- A new market for ball and club manufacturers...somebody would come up with a gimmick
- Potentially year-round playing conditions
- No need for tree clearing projects

Apparently the folks at Rustic Canyon had the right idea....if they had just made the course more like the range  

[Philippe Binette]

No, and I hope not...

Artificial turf should be considered more damaging to the environment than the living organism that is grass. Plus to put articial turf, you need a 6 inch gravel base underneat.

You can imagine the cost...

[THuckaby2]

Mike, I think that can be overcome.  They really can adjust the firmness of this turf by adding and subtracting sand and other fill material, and maybe with some creativity in the base.  I doubt they can ever make it really soft, but who wants that anyway?

[sidebar:  at my last house I installed an artificial turf putting green, that's how I have any knowledge about this.]

What would seem more difficult to me would be creating any sort of randomness in lies - which really is one of the great, vexing parts of the game, or should be, anyway.  I suppose they can creat "rough" - just longer blades - but how will they avoid having that be all uniform, as the fairways will be?  And wouldn't all this uniformity be pretty boring?

On the other hand, there are legions of golfers who might enjoy perfect and/or predictable lies time after time after time.  I'm thinking that would get old after awhile, but who knows....

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

Huck,

After a while, I'd suspect that the turf would get worn spots. And if grass divots are any indications, SOMEBODY will find a way to take a turf divot.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

There is an indoor 7000 yds course being designed and built for a casino in MS.  I think near Tunica.  If you do a search there is an article.  The dome will be transparent.  I am unsure if they are using real grass or not.  A canadian outfit is doing the project and investing.

[A_Clay_Man]

The Future of artificial golf will likely look this way (color)



Unless they have perfected keeping the pigments in the material, or constantly coat with a UV protector.

[Dan Herrmann]

My concern is with the watershed.  All that artificial turf could act just like a big parking lot - keeping rainwater out of the water table and diverting it to storm sewers.

The results of destroying vegetation can be seen in Haiti, where TS Jeanne killed scores of people and led to widespread flooding.  There were no trees/wetlands/grasses to absorb the H2O!

It can happen here too.  New York state's Adirondack Park is declared as 'forever wild' in the state constitution.  This is due to excessive logging of the native forests in the 1800's, leading to significant soil erosion and destruction of the Hudson River ecosystem, including the danger of eliminating a potable water source for NYC at the time.

Properly run golf courses are truly friendly to the environment!!!

[Bill Gayne]

If an artificial turf could be invented that mixed with grass on greens would have interestiing potential in places subject to frost delays and temporary greens in the winter. The premise being similar to the over seeding of bermuda. During the warm times of the year the grass mix would bloom and dominate. During the cooler times of the year the artificial turf would be the surface with the natural grass in a dormant state. Use could also be on tee boxes. Leave the fairways grass.

[JohnV]

Go to the link that Shane put in here and you'll find a link to the Golfweek article and a page on how they are doing this so that the water filters through the turf.  They also claim to have UV resistant "grass".  They say it will last 7 to 15 years.

[mikes1160]

I believe the Echo Basin project has been delayed, as reported in the Aug. 20 SuperNEWS - the owner discovered inconsistencies with the uniformity of the artificial blades of grass.........also, he wasn't happy with how mid-iron shots he struck reacted when they hit the synthetic grass putting green on his resort. He said the surface was too hard to absorb high-trajectory shots...........sounds like a John Cleese NXT commercial

[Michael Dugger]

It would seem to me that the place to look is in all of the artificial turfs that we are seeing put down in many sporting venues.

Here in Oregon, since it rains a TON, many of the stadiums are going to the fake stuff.....but not the traditional carpet/rug type crap that ends so many pro ball players careers.

The new stuff actually is like blades of grass.  Many of them use a base of ground up tires.  It feels kind of like grass when you run on it.  It looks like grass.  It leaves a hell of a cherry on your knee if you slide on it.  It seems to me the blades are a kind of nylon type of material.

Who knows, though, are ground up tires the type of thing we want to spread out over 75 acres?  

[JohnV]

According to their website, the Echo Basin course is using ground up Nikes under the top layer of fake grass.

[Dan Herrmann]

According to their website, the Echo Basin course is using ground up Nikes under the top layer of fake grass.

As a former Nike employee, I'm so proud  

[A.G._Crockett]

We have just put Field Turf on our main game field at the HS where I teach and coach; an area approx. 140 yds. x 70 yds. cost over $300,000.  I'm sure there would be economies of scale, but I can't imagine that this would be cost effective for a full size golf course.

However, it is wonderful stuff, by and large.  NFL players rate it very highly, and our kids like it.  I had read last year that the NFL players listed Field Turf surfaces as 6 of their 10 favorite fields around the league, with natural grass being the other 4.  The only drawbacks are the heat here in GA (approx. 15 extra degrees in summer weather) and the rug burns, though they are not nearly like the old astroturf burns.

We did it only because we were spending $25,000 a year resodding, and at that the spring sports teams were playing on dirt.  We don't anticipate doing anything to it for about 12 years, at which point another dose of the ground up rubber would be applied.  At today's prices, that would run about $100,000.

I haven't tried hitting golf balls on it; the head football coach (who is a golf buddy) would either have a heart attack or shoot me, or both!  However, some ranges at local courses have put in strips of varieties of this, and it is pretty good.
Still, I have a hard time imagining this working from either a cost standpoint, or the aesthetics.  Certainly, it wouldn't work well for greens.

[A.G._Crockett]

I forgot to mention that last Sat. we played a football game on a perfect field, 24 hrs after Ivan had dumped 8 inches of rain on N.GA.  I played golf that afternoon, and my course, which drains wonderfully, was marginal in terms of playability.  In years past, our game field would have been destroyed for the year if we had played under those conditions, but we would have lost the gate if we had cancelled.  Either way, it is a financial black hole.  Maybe that is where the economics get better for a golf course; less maintenance and less downtime to cover much, much higher construction costs.

[Brian_Gracely]

A.G.,

The high-schools in my hometown recently added that turf, but found a unique way to pay for it...let the cellular carrier do it.  In exchange for allowing the light standards to double as cellular towers, the cellular company offer to give the district the money for the fields.  I'll bet a golf course could  do something similar, as I've seen cellular towers made to look like large pines....ok, it's noticable, but not obnoxious.

btw - that new turf that looks like grass is 1000% better on your skin when you fall....much better than the stuff that used to give us rug-burns in the Pontiac Silverdome.

[Mike Benham]

 It leaves a hell of a cherry on your knee if you slide on it.  

Double ditto on the cherry ...

Put I think this style of turf would be unacceptable for golf courses, not from how the ball rolls and plays but it is a hazard to swing and have the "ground up Nikes" flying up into your eyes.  Watch a game on TV and you will see what I mean ...

[tonyt]

- Low maintenance costs

Is this correct? A number of artificial turf sports facilities use it because it is better for them than grass, despite being more expensive to maintain!

[A_Clay_Man]

My concern is with the watershed.  All that artificial turf could act just like a big parking lot - keeping rainwater out of the water table and diverting it to storm sewers.

Dan- Here in the four corners region, your concerns are greatly reduced, it being high desert. It's also highly likely that our lack of bankable water supply was the justification for this project in the first place.

It really is no surprise that this project is delayed. With turf costs in the millions (estimates are from 6-14m), the principle could never return his nut, in the timeframe it takes to lose the green pigment. 15 years seems a bit of a stretch. When I worked in flourescents  we did a few small studies but somehow I am under the impressions that 6 years would be a maximum.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

There is an indoor 7000 yds course being designed and built for a casino in MS.  I think near Tunica.  If you do a search there is an article.  The dome will be transparent.  I am unsure if they are using real grass or not.  A canadian outfit is doing the project and investing.

Cliff, I was actually looking for this Golfweek when I saw the title of this thread, before I read your post.

Unfortunately I just threw that issue away this week.  They are going to grow real grass on the course, the domed roof is going to be something like 1/4 mile wide by about a mile long, and will be 40 stories high.  The course will be part of The XXXXXX Golf & Botanical Resort and Casino (I cant remember the name).  The artists rendering showed a large hotel casino  along one side of the dome, pretty cool looking.  As an engineer I am looking forward to seeing if they can do this.

The story hinted that the permitting is mostly done, the other casinos in the area have approved the expansion/new casino, and it is supposedly pretty much a go.  

They said the dome roof will be translucent teflon, and will be supported by air pressure.  When you look up the sky inside the dome will be pretty close in color to what the sky is outside.

Only in America.  I bet they arent thinking of doing this at Falluja Golf & CC.

[A.G._Crockett]

- Low maintenance costs

Is this correct? A number of artificial turf sports facilities use it because it is better for them than grass, despite being more expensive to maintain!

Tony,
The maintenance costs ARE much, much lower; the only question would be if they are enough lower to recoup the initial outlay.  

No mowing, overseeding, fertilizing, pre-emergents, watering, plus the reduced staff, adds up in a big way.  Additionally, in the athletic field situation, the lines on the field are basically permanent, as opposed to being repainted weekly on natural turf.

That said, we're not sure if we'll come out even or not on the dollars.  What we DO know is that the soccer and lacrosse teams will not be playing on dirt this spring, that PE classes can use the field all day every day, and that we won't have to shut it down next summer for a month to resod the middle third of the field.  Even if it costs us some additional money, that is worth a lot.  Of course, much of that sort of benefit wouldn't translate nearly as well to a golf course!