[Dave_Miller]

I have not played either and I really am interested in the comparison. Aronimink has been widely praised here for the work that Ron Pritchard did to "take the course back to its Ross origins and remove RTJ's work."

Oakland Hills, deservedly so IMHO, is being widely praised yet much of RTJ's redo of a the original Ross is still there, or so it appears when you see the lake on #16 "the signature hole". I assume that is an RTJ lake.

Why does Oakland Hills work so well as a blending of architects or is there something else ?

Mike:
Have never played Oakland Hills so I cannot comment on a comparison.  However as a member of Aronimink I noticed quite of few RTJ items at Oakland Hills that were similar to some things Aronimink had prior to the restoration such as bunkers that were supposed to pinch the fairways, etc.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike Sweeney:

That is a very, very, very interesting, albeit hypothetical, question re: the Ocean Couse scenario. A very sticky one too for us "classicalists". In fact, it's a question I've been struggling with, very much, while trying to complete my forthcoming book, tentatively titled "Preserving the World's Great Golf Courses".

Pete Dye is pretty clear with his opinion that golf courses need to be updated to keep apace with an ever-changing game. He's already made significant changes to a number of his own original designs, including Crooked Stick, Harbortown, and the Ocean Course for this very reason.

I'm certainly not trying to speak for Mr. Dye, but I think if further developments in playing equipment technologies and player development warranted an upgrading at the Ocean Course in order to host an event the Kiawah Island Resort was keen to host, he would be for it. Even if he wasn't around and Doak or Nicklaus undertook such a renovation.

There's no doubt, too, the fact that Donald Ross was ready to redo his 1916-17 design at Oakland Hills some 40 years later says something about the game changing and the need to keep courses apace.

Back to the Ocean course... if the PGA Tour pros of 2015 are driving the ball 500 yards, I'd hope that Doak or Nicklaus or whoever was called in to renovate the Ocean Course would be sensitive to Dye's original design, style, and vision, while at the same time making changes necessary to challenge the world's best players.

In essence, the most successful restorative-based work completed at classic courses to-date has followed that basic philosophy.  

[Greg Holland]

According to Brian Hewitt on The Golf Channel tonight, Rees Jones will make changes to Oakland Hills for the 2008 PGA Championship "to put teeth back into the Monster."  Indications are that Rees will lengthen several holes by moving the greens (holes 2,3 and 4 likely).  According to Hewitt, Rees said that he would move, but not redesign the greens -- that he planned to copy the greens, which he attributed to his father (not Donald Ross).  My understanding was that RTJ "recognized the genius" of the greens and left them intact when he created the "monster."  Hewitt also noted that Nicklaus called the greens at Oakland Hills the best set of greens in America.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Very interesting report, Greg.

I've visited Oakland Hills many times. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how 2 and 4 greens could logically be moved back. And, as Rees Jones knows, it's easier to claim you're going to duplicate that contour than to actually pull it off.

Interesting, too, that Rees attributes those greens to his dad. Isn't it on record that the basic structure of the greens was left untouched during RTJ's renovation?

[Greg Holland]

I have a book at home, can't remember which one it is, that basically states that RTJ was brilliant for recognizing the greatness of the Ross greens, "leaving them largely intact."  During the Ryder Cup last week, NBC also opened a segment noting that the greens were almost unaltered from how Ross designed them over 80 years ago.  

[rgkeller]

This is an excellent thread to compare those two courses. I wish I could participate but I can't because I only know one of them. Never been to Oakland Hills.

We knew you would somehow find a way.

[TEPaul]

Thanks rg--that just shows how observant you really are.

[ian]

I find the two of them very similar, and this is a clever thread.

I do like them both, but will likely not seek out either again. As an architect, there is little I really want to take from either one.

They are perfect for tournyments, where their intensity and demands are well suited, but neither catches the eye or the heart. Holes also begin to blend too easily into each other through the demands and the architecture.

Rather than being left impressed or enticed, you are left bruised and beaten by their intensity.

[Paul Richards]

In conversation tonight with Ron Prichard, he pointed out to me that he felt that RTJ Sr. had enough respect for Donald Ross' greens at Oakland Hills that he pretty much left well-enough alone.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

That's apparently the thinking at Aronimink too.

[Paul Richards]

tom

that is correct, sir!

 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Pete Dye is pretty clear with his opinion that golf courses need to be updated to keep apace with an ever-changing game. He's already made significant changes to a number of his own original designs, including Crooked Stick, Harbortown, and the Ocean Course for this very reason.

Actually, Pete came back to The Ocean Course for two reasons, neither of which had to do with making the course more challenging to tour players.  The first was to make it less challenging to the average resort players.  After the Ryder Cup, we were getting 6-6 1/2 hour rounds out there.  Pete came back and reworked much of the areas around the green complexes so that if a player missed the green (a common occurance), they could actually find their ball and play it (if it was missed on the correct side).  Secondly, he reclaimed many of the lines of the original course.  As it sits on wind-swept dunes, the course tends to walk around on us.  Over a period of a decade, it had changed quite a bit.  Pete came back and restored many of the original bunker lines and green contors (and took out the contors that had developed on the tees due to blowing sand).

And, FYI, we sincerely believe we have a good chance of landing a major, maybe even in my lifetime!

[Paul Richards]

mike said:
>Pete came back to The Ocean Course for two reasons, neither of which had to do with making the course more challenging to tour players.


as i mentioned on another thread, prichard's restoration at beverly accomplished making it easier for the worst players, and harder for the better players.


>>Does the course play tougher?

from lots of conversations, i have been able to gather that the higher handicaps view the changes positively because they feel the wider corridors make the course play easier for them and the larger greens are easier to hit.

the good players are challenged by the new bunkering and feel the course plays tougher due to the increased length, and greater emphasis on having to 'think' their way around the course - proper positioning of shots for drives, approaches and correct portions of greens to hit - instead of only being concerned about hitting a dead-straight ball.

additionally, the loss of trees has been more than compensated in actually growing rough - especially in spots that used to be dirt due to a canopy if trees.  this has challenged the low handicappers.

simply put, the high-handicappers feel it's easier and the low-handicappers find it tougher.

this is a pretty good combinatiin in my book.  

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Between the wind, the sand and the green complexes, not to mention the back tees that, from the middle, measure 7,937 yards, Pete didn't need to do anything to make The Ocean Course harder for the pros...

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