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Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« on: September 16, 2004, 09:42:26 PM »
Much has been made about architects taking particular attention to certain courses of their portfolio to hopefully ensure that course's legacy.  Ross tweaked Pinehurst until his death.  McKenzie lived at Pasa.  I may be wrong, but I believe MacDonald made changes at NGLA along the way also.  Certainly architects have their favorite son's and that is understandable.  Nothing wrong with having a favorite creation....but do architects ever leave a site and say "Damn, this course ain't much count."

I know a lot of time goes into designing a course, but don't you think a guy like Fazio or Dye with so many courses under their belt have a few they might even admit (privately) are real stinkers? What about Ross?  If his name is on as many courses as advertised, surely he did some master salesmanship (nod to Barney) and produced a few duds.

Are there any examples of an architect admitting to building a less than stellar course?  All of you golf historians out there, did anyone ever write about regretting his choices on a course?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 09:59:07 PM »
Dale:

On the record, few architects are going to say anything negative about their past work.  It just opens the door to more criticism.  For example, I've been honest that I wish I could make some decisions at Black Forest over again, because I think it was an excellent site and it could have been VERY good ... but all people remember is that I said it wasn't my best work, and it's so rare for an architect to self-critique that people assume it must suck!

Off the record, several architects have told me of projects they didn't like in hindsight, but I won't share those confidences.
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 10:55:39 PM »
Tom,
 Interesting that you brought up that course. I was just thinking about it the other day, and was wondering why I never hear about it.
    If you could go in there what would you change? What would you rate it on your scale as it is now? What do you think it could be on your scale?
     I went looking for the course when I first played High Pointe years ago, but there was another Wilderness Valley that I was directed to, so I haven't seen your course of the same name yet.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

moth

Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 11:20:12 PM »
As a redhead myself I highly resemble that comment.

Theres a big difference between a "real stinker" and "less than stellar" work" - most could/would admit to the latter but few would admit to the former.

Surely everyone has done work that doesn't quite meet their standards at some point, especially as your standards and expectations change with time.  

Theres probably one or two (or many more) things on nearly all my work I wish I had done differently in hindsight - I assume nearly everyone including the "greats" would say that. Certainly Pete Dye with his history of repeatedly tweaking his past work must agree?
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 11:31:06 PM »
Jack Nicklaus has said on the record that he would never again build a resort course as difficult as LaPaloma in Tucson, AZ. I think the slope is 151 from the tips and 140 from the resort tees. It was one of his early solo efforts.

Steve
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2004, 09:34:00 AM »
Dale,

Knowing Mr. Doak and the fact he is too much of a gentleman to bring this up I must take you to task on his behalf.  He is a gay, redheaded step child of Arab descent and I think you have done a great disservice to this site by using such a deragotory term to make your annalogy, and I am certain you have csused him great pain. I would hope you will refrain from any such terms in the future, and apologize immediately.
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Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2004, 10:26:33 AM »
First of all, my apologies to any red headed posters I may have offended.  I just figured as a balding overweight guy we could all take a little prodding at one another.

Seriously though, thanks Tom for the response.  I certainly understand your comments and as a modern day architect I can see where it would put you in a awkward situation.  But what about the guys who are long gone?  Does anyone know of in any or Ross' writings (or anybody for that matter), who openly admitted to feeling that one of their courses was just not what they wanted and they were disappointed by the final product?

Steve:  The comment on LaPaloma is a great example of what I was looking for.
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do architects have red-headed stepchildren?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2004, 11:53:12 AM »
Surely Pete Dye at Carmel Valley Ranch admits that it was a clunker.
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