[TEPaul]

It seems hard to pin down when and where and by whom some really natural looking architectural lines, bunkering and such first came into golf architecture.

So I thought I'd try and turn this whole question around and suggest that we investigate who of that early era really did get into designing and creating some of those ultra awful geometric and super artificial features such as "Dragon's Teeth" mounds found in photos of some of the early American courses between perhaps 1898 and as late as the early teens.

It seems Ross may have done some of that. Tom MacWood claims Willie Watson did some around the turn of the century in California! There's no question, though, that Willie Watson's style later was extremely natural looking and that he was part of that incredible era and group in California who may have taken architectural style to perhaps it's highest level ever.

Who of the really famous architects who were working in that early era got into super geometric architectural features and who didn't, and if anyone can possible tell----why?

This entire era, although it may have been quite short was so radically different from anything we know I think more should be known about it. It seems to me there was a transition from rudimentary man-made architecture at the end of the 19th century into this really awful geometric style and gradually out of it to a far more natural appearling style probably culminating in lines like CPC or even earlier in PVGC, Merion etc. And then there's the healthland style! I'd like to know how early it started.

If Ross did those really awful "Dragon's Teeth" mounds and other highly artifical features the obvious question is why? Was he that inexperienced and uneffected by some of the natural beauty of the Scottish courses he came from---or even perhaps were courses such as Dornoch or even TOC and others that famous really crude and perhaps geometric in some of their features as well?

And who really was it who killed the geometric era? Was it the heathland influence, was it really Macdonald with his remark (obviously about the geometric style) "The very soul of Golf Shrieks!" which apparently induced him to build NGLA! Or was it others or just a amalgamation of factors?

Since I can't really figure out when and why or even where real naturalism in architectural features came into golf it might just be worth-while to concentrate on that horrifying style itself---the highly artifical looking "Geometric Era" in architecture.

I basically always thought the people who created architecture like that back then were only the ones who had no architectural experience at all. Maybe that wasn't the case!

[paul cowley]

  i too would like to see more info on that era [calling tom  mac wood].......it exudes a certain neanderthal feeling that excites me from an anthropologic design sense [if you know what i mean   ].......

[T_MacWood]

TE
How much do you know about William Watson and his style? He had a very long design career...how would you characterize his style...what are some of his most representative designs in your opinion?

[T_MacWood]

Paul C
One of the more ironic aspects of the so-called dark ages of golf architecture was the fact the architects (Tom Dunn, Willie Dunn, Tom Morris) who built these monstrosities were products of the great natural links.

[paul cowley]

... i doubt it would be a big seller , but i would love to see a compilation of the more interesting examples of that era....or maybe even a fun calendar !

[TEPaul]

"TE
How much do you know about William Watson and his style? He had a very long design career...how would you characterize his style...what are some of his most representative designs in your opinion?"

Tom MacWood:

I know very little about Willie Watson, other than what I've read about him and a few photos of holes and features he did probably in the teens and 1920s. I'd characterize his style, later style anyway, as naturistic, and that photo you produced of a hole at Minikahda in 1927 represents what I know of Willie Watson's style of architecture (you attributed the bunkering look in that hole to Ross, and I doubt it was--I feel it looks more like the bunker style of Watson). That style to me is fairly akin to some of the architectural styles of California in the 1920s, particularly the late 20s when a certain style (Monterrey style or whatever one wants to call it) may have taken golf architecture, in a sense, to it's highest levels ever in the context of a "look".

I know that Hunter recruited Watson to California to design Berkley C.C. I have real respect for Robert Hunter and if Willie Watson was part of his group and genre I have real respect for Watson's style of architecture too.

But the point here is---if Willie Watson actually did DESIGN (as you say he did and I don't necessarily yet believe) that super geometric hole at the Annandale G.C around 1900 that shows up in the photo in the first page of the introduction to GeoffShac's book "The Golden Age of Design" I really would like to know not just that he did it but also why he designed a style (highly geometrically artifical looking) like that even if it was very early.

I'm not just interested that some architects got from A to Z in their careers, I'm also interested in finding both how and why!

[TEPaul]

"One of the more ironic aspects of the so-called dark ages of golf architecture was the fact the architects (Tom Dunn, Willie Dunn, Tom Morris) who built these monstrosities were products of the great natural links."

Maybe it's ironic to us only because we aren't really looking at it accurately or correctly. That could be because we're looking at it backwards through the prisms of all the things we know that came after them they never could have known! And that's precisely why I'm so interesting in the when, how, why and who of golf architecture and the evolution of it's various types and styles of any particular time and place.

I'm interested in somehow trying to get back into their minds and eyes and not yours or mine!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Would you characterize WW teens and twenties style as more like MacKenzie and Thomas or Ross and Park? What courses are good representations of his style?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Why do you ask?

But before I answer (if I'm able) it certainly does seem to me that Willie Watson's later bunkering type and style was very little like the types and styles of Donald Ross, and that's precisely why, if you look back at the thread, I said that Minikahda photo really did super suprise me when you attributed that bunkering to Donald Ross in that thread. Those bunkers didn't look much of anything like I've ever seen from Ross---and nothing like anything described in his own book which admittedly was written around 1914.

[T_MacWood]

TE
The reason I ask is because William Watson is not one of the more well-known or well-documented architects; there are very few photos of his work which may lead to a misconception of his style.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but there was an example of his work on the British architectural quiz thread. It is very unlikely what you saw in that Minikahda photo was the work of Watson (or Foulis) in 1899 or 1906. In fact I'm not aware of any architect in 1899 or 1906 that was producing anything like that.


Olympic-Ocean

[TEPaul]

"It is very unlikely what you saw in that Minikahda photo was the work of Watson (or Foulis) in 1899 or 1906. In fact I'm not aware of any architect in 1899 or 1906 that was producing anything like that."

Tom MacW:

That remark almost exactly encapsulates a bunch of the points I've been trying to make with you over various threads.

I'm really not very familar with the bunkering styles of Willie Watson throughout his career, and I'm less so with Robert Foulis.

The point I was making about that Minikahda photo in 1927 you produced is the bunkering in that photo looked absolutely nothing like bunkering of Donald Ross at any point in his career that I'm aware of. That's what surprised me so much because you had ten or so photos asking us to identify the architects and to everyone's surprise you eventually told us they were all Ross. Well, I doubted that bunkering in that Minikahda photo really was Ross--because it looked absolutely like nothing I've ever seen from him. He may have inherited it and used it or reused it as it was when he completely redesigned Minikahda in 1917. And if you look back I never said Watson or Foulis must have produced that style on that course between 1899 and 1906.

So the question becomes was it the work and style of Foulis or Watson some time later? If either of them last worked on the course in and around the turn of the century it's highly unlikely the style of that bunkering would have been theirs since none of us can find a style like that that early in architecture anyway.

So who did it if it wasn't Ross? Was it either of two guys listed in the architectural attribution under Minikahda known as Taylor or Jaffray who are so lightly known in architecture their names are in italics (which means no bio in C&W). Or perhaps it was Watson either before or after WW1 since he had been the greenskeeper at Minikahda early on and didn't appear to have permanently moved from Minnesota to the West Coast until after WW1. Did Watson actually come from Minikahda until he moved West permanently?

So who did do that bunkering in that 1927 photo if it wasn't Ross which looking at it seems pretty unlikely and illogical?

All this is the primary reason I wrote that thread entitled "Questions on accuracy and attribution."

Maybe your independent research on Minikahda has turned up a ton more about the architectural evolution of that golf course than C&W has but I don't know that.

Maybe Ron Prichard knows because he just did a project there. And the other thing I asked you is if you have any idea who may have redesigned that golf course between that 1927 photo you presented and that recent point when Prichard came in there?

C&W says Ralph Plummer and Michael Hurzdan did obviously at different times! But what did they do? Do you know? That could have a real influence on what Prichard was able to restore to although for some reason you don't seem to understand exactly why that would be.

Do you see where I'm going with all this and why it's all important to know? To me it's called the entire architectural evolution of a golf course and it can be very important to know accurately for a number of reasons---particularly when the club intends to restore it. It gets to be questions of what, when, who and why.

Clearly you don't seem to like me mentioning it anymore but that entire architectural evolution is what I did for my club and it was published by my club for the entire membership and Gil used it to come up with his restoration plan.

[T_MacWood]

TE
If there was any lesson to be learned from the Ross thread, it was the diversity of styles Ross employed throughout his career. I believe you said it was common knowledge Ross used many styles.

What is it exactly, with the bunkers at Minikahda, that is uncharacteristic in your opinion...that leads you to believe they are the work of another man?

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