[Kenny Lee Puckett]

John -

Wow!

I was merely pointing out the current state of the world.

Golf is a mess?

I can't remember when golf has been more mainstream.  Admittedly, the elite members of the world wide sporting press have placed too much emphasis on the Majors and not enough emphasis on the weekly PGA TOUR events.  It is if their presence at the Majors validates the tournament, and their own importance.  Frequently, they know the very least about the game as evidenced by the BPTHNWAM annointment (Formerly Mickelson until Augusta), or why can't Tiger keep winning?  These people have no idea how hard it is to win a major.

Major Championships are Major because of their scarcity, tradition, strength of field, strength of venue, reputation of their organizing sanctioning body, and last but not least, interest from the fan.  That is why, in spite of everyone's search for the "Fifth Major" (Especially The Players Championship), four seems to be enough.  The PGA Championship's drawback is the fact that it falls last on the rotation.  

In terms of "Improving the game of golf," my prior post was not "How do we make all things right?"  It was merely a reflection on the standards of success that sports and entertainment are judged on today.

"The Battle of the Bridges" is a guilty pleasure because it is indeed an exhibition.  Sure we know it is entertainment, but who didn't enjoy watching Daly, et al crank it up off of the tee?

The decline of Western Civilization is not tied to Nielsen Ratings or purse sizes that satiate the best players in the game desire to play.  From my cheap seat, I think that Stephen Ames should be considered for Player of the Year for his entire season.  Mickelson and Els will probably get the most votes because if their records in the majors, and Singh will be considered on total victories.

John, why will defining a Major vs. a Common Stop improve the Game?

JWK

[Ken Fry]

Mr. Keever,

I didn't pull down your last post with a quote because I don't want it dirtying up my database....everything you mention is a direct result of why golf is in the mess it is today.  

Sorry JakaB, like all professional sports, professional golf is big business.  Without the support of those businesses, you wouldn't have tournaments to complain about, major or otherwise, unless you watch only the amateurs.  Then again, even the amateurs have big business backing them up (i.e. team sponsorships, USGA support, etc.)

It does seem rather arrogant for three of the four "majors" to be held in the US, similar to the "World's Greatest Baseball Team" winning the World Series.

Give the PGA time to finish.  Then complain.  Everyone was extolling the virtues of the US Open before Sunday then switched their tunes (except sadisitic folks like yourself that like seeing the world's greatest players shoot in the 80's on tricked up tracks).

[Dan Kelly]

On the flip side of what I said earlier:

If we have consecutive wins by Rich Beem, Shaun Micheel and Briny Baird, I would consider that evidence that perhaps the PGA setup could use some sternifying.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Dan -

Nobody complained when David Toms won in Atlanta with a -10.

To the others:

From KFry:

"Sorry JakaB, like all professional sports, professional golf is big business.  Without the support of those businesses, you wouldn't have tournaments to complain about, major or otherwise, unless you watch only the amateurs.  Then again, even the amateurs have big business backing them up (i.e. team sponsorships, USGA support, etc.)"

Yes, money has ruined everything,  They even let professionals in the clubhouse!!! (Tonque firmly in cheek)

The PGA of America IS a business.  The business runs our golf courses, teaches and codifies a set of standards for our professionals to aspire to, encourages people to play golf and for others to discover the joy of the game.  They take in a great deal of money from The Ryder Cup, The PGA and The Senior PGA Championships in the name of entertainment.  They then invest this money towards the betterment of golf in general.  The  PGA of America does a great deal for the game.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan -

Nobody complained when David Toms won in Atlanta with a -10.

Two points --

1) The score itself doesn't concern me. But at Major Championships, I want the course to -- as much as possible -- identify the best players, whatever the score turns out to be. Beem and Micheel and Baird are not, by any stretch of the imagination, among that group.

2) Toms is.

[John Foley]

What happens when you get the best players playing poorly
or
the next level of players who get hot?

In these cases the course becomes irrelevent. Why else do you have a Janzen  wining the Open, Beem & Micheel winning the PGA, Hamilton & Curtis willing the British.

The course and set up can only help identify the best. After that it's all about execution.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dan-  With the parity that exists today, it's anybody's ballgame. The interesting part is how those guys(underdogs) held-it together, when they were in a position to win a major.

I just don't see how or why, there's an accepted convention that Toms is any better a golfer, than any other card carrying tour pro. Or how the course reflects anything but the best that week. Stats don't mean poo. Politics does, I'll give you that. BUT, If the leaders on the stat lists, get there at pristinely manicured venues, that don't reflect the reality, or the unpredictability, major championship golf has been known to provide, how good are they?.

 

[A.G._Crockett]

The interesting thing about Toms is that he laid up on 18, then made a 12 footer for par to win.  IF he misses the putt, and Mickelson goes on to win, maybe Toms becomes Chip Beck.  The margins are very, very thin at that level.

Guys like Micheel, Curtis, and Hamilton are comparable to Moody, North, Fleck and others in the past.  A solid journeyman catches lightning in a bottle for four days and becomes history.  It happens.  Each of us can look back on the best stretch of golf we have ever played; what if that had happened at a moment and at a level that won a major championship?  That's not an indictment of a course setup or a tournament, and, over time, the majors as a group DO identify the best players.  Maybe just not A major THIS week, but who knows?

[Dan Kelly]

All I'm saying, gentlemen, is that if a solid journeyman (I don't think Curtis qualifies there, by the way) catches lightning in the same bottle year after year after year, there just might (emphasize: might) be something wrong with the way that bottle is being prepared.

[tonyt]

Three majors in the US is an imbalance, but when the WGC Matchplay was held in Melbourne a few years back, many players were absent. You'd have to have an event in or around the region the week prior to add viability to the trip.

Why this argument that the PGA can't be matchplay because we already have one matchplay event six months earlier? That is the stupidest comment I've ever read. Maybe it shouldn't be strokeplay because there are 50 other strokeplay events, including all the weeks leading up to it and all the weeks just after it! Maybe the US Open can't remain strokeplay because we already have a strokeplay major in GB only a month later  

[Gary_Smith]

What happens when you get the best players playing poorly
or
the next level of players who get hot?

In these cases the course becomes irrelevent. Why else do you have a Janzen  wining the Open, Beem & Micheel winning the PGA, Hamilton & Curtis willing the British.

The course and set up can only help identify the best. After that it's all about execution.

Janzen shouldn't be lumped in with the likes of Beem, Micheel, and Curtis.

[David_Tepper]

Gary Smtih,

You are right - Lee Janzen probably should not be lumped in with Beem. Curtis & Micheel.  However, he could be lumped in with Andy North, Scott Simpson, Steve Jones and even Curtis Strange. All very good, solid (and for the most part boring) players who seem to play their best (relative to the field) under US Open conditions, where making a lot of pars is at a premium.

DT    

[Andrew Summerell]

I agree with Tony that one matchplay tourney should not disqualify another on the the tour, being that there is so much stroke play.

It would be good for the PGA to find a little more individuallity. Matchplay would do that - of course, the networks wouldn't allow it.

Andrew

[Brian Walshe]

Obviously Jaka has not played Huntingdale but at least he showed enough common sense to leave out the Australian Open and keep things away from the AGU  

I'd love to be able to watch a Major live rather than having to set the alarm for 4.30am as I did this morning but it won't happen whilst the current group of players and administrators are running the professional game.  

If the people in power today had any brains they'd see that the US is not a bottomless pit of money and that at some point in the future sponsors will want more than just US coverage for their mega dollars.  It might take 5, 10 or even 20 years but there will come a time where for the purses and game to grow the best players and events have to be taken to the world and not just the Florida backyards of 50 multi millionaires.

Imagine if the Tour was global today.  If the best players and tournaments where being played not just in Orlando or Sheboygan but Europe, Asia and Africa.  The potential for the game to be much much bigger than it is today exists but to get that midshare in the emerging markets it needs to be visible in those places and at the moment the best of the professional game isn't. I can help think the current group is squandering a huge opportunity.

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, I'm with you on this one totally. I'll be Sancho Panza to your Don Quixote.

We maybe chasing windmills but I'll follow you on your quest.

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
And to run where
the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong
And to love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star
This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far
To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march,
march into hell
For that heavenly cause
And I know
If I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart
Will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest
And the world will be
better for this
That one man, scorned
and covered with scars,
Still strove with his last
ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable,
the unreachable,
The unreachable star
And I'll always dream
The impossible dream
Yes, and I'll reach
The unreachable star

Let my BBGE bag tag be my medal of honor and bravery--for it I shall die a thousand deaths!

[A_Clay_Man]

On the flip side of what I said earlier:

If we have consecutive wins by Rich Beem, Shaun Micheel and Briny Baird, I would consider that evidence that perhaps the PGA setup could use some sternifying.

Dan- I came across this, on golfonline;

There are 13 players who made the cut in the first three majors this year, but two of them, Retief Goosen and Nick Price, withdrew from the PGA Championship. Here are the other 11 with their finishes in the Masters, U.S. Open, and British Open:

Phil Mickelson (1-2-3)
Ernie Els (2-T9-2)
Tiger Woods (T22-T17-T9)
K.J. Choi (3-T31-T16)
Vijay Singh (T6-T28-T20)
Scott Verplank (29-T40-T7)
Chris DiMarco (T6-T9-T63)
Steve Flesch (T17-T7-T54)
Charles Howell III (T13-T36-T42)
Shaun Micheel (T22-T28-T47)
Jerry Kelly (T31-T40-T47)

2 out three aint bad but you must give the man some due. Not do-do

[DMoriarty]

Barney, the first commendable idea you've had since . . . hmmm . . . .  

Frankly I've never been able to think of the PGA Championship as a real major.   Seems like it is somewhere between a real major and the unwatchable PGA Tour.  Who wouldn't trade a few PGA Championships for one of any of the other majors.  

But forget about the Australian Masters.  Have it at Royal Melbourne year after year.   Any tournament on that course is worth watching.   Play qualifying stroke play on a rotation the week before (with prize money), then have the final 32 match it out the next weekend.  

[Gerry B]

funny that no one has mentioned the best course in Australia (imho) as a permanent site for a major - New South Wales -composite courses - ie Royal Melbourne do not make the cut

let the flames begin

[Mike_Clayton]

GerryB

Aside from the RM v NSW debate - which I think RM wins hands down - there is no car park at NSW and no practice fairway.


RM would be a great place to play a huge event and Ernie did shoot about 20 under this year (-29 last year at Lake Karrinyup)
If they screwed the course up by growing long grass all over it as they would in America the winning score would be a deal higher - and the golf would be pretty boring.

Huntingdale would not be a favorite of the players and it is hard to imagine how it ever did make the top 100 in the world.
Barnbougle would be pretty neat.

[Gerry B]

Mike;

Respectfully disagree -I think NSW wins hands down - and I am not alone in this opinion.  

The range debate is a good point but not essential IMHO.It is about the course. Yes, logistics would be a problem -I was making the point that RM is not the best course in Australia IMHO.

Jack Newton -the great Australian player who unfortunately had a tragic accident many years ago would  agree with my assessment of NSW vs RM.

If the 4th Major  - to replace the PGA was awarded to  Australia,I am sure  there would be enough $$$ to facilitate any infrastructure issues,however the time zone issue will always be a problem for live televison to the USA and Europe due to the power of the internet

[Chris Kane]

Gerry B,

In Golf Magazine's 2002 Australia's Top 25, Jack Newton rates NSW 3rd, behind Royal Adelaide and the West Course.

Having seen both courses a number of times, I strongly disagree that NSW is ahead of RMW - and in my experience the only people who see it differently are the NSW members.  I'd also place Kingston Heath ahead of NSW.

When you judge the architecture alone, NSW isn't even close to RMW.  

[Mike_Clayton]

Gerry

Jack has never rated NSW above Royal Melb - unless he is saying something privately and doing something different on the magazine panel both he and I are part of.

Nor is he likely to any time soon now Greg Norman replaced him as the design company of choice there !!!

I know there are a few who would agree NSW is superior but they are in a significant minority down here - as far as I can tell.

[Gerry B]

Mike:

Jack hosted a few of us a few years ago on  afew courses down under and held NSW in  high regard as did we! Not doubting the merits of both NSW and RM- however RM receives demerit points for composite in its world  rankings ala Brookline. However you just hit a sore point re: Kingston Heath. Did not get that course at all - in fact  myself and several of my colleagues who have all played over 50 of the worlds top 100 ranked courses unanimously picked it as tied for our # 1 most overrated ranked course with Wentworth. Would rather spend 4 uninterrupted hours in the privacy of the Capital Club next door or drive the 90 minutes from the Park Hyatt in Melbourne  to Cape Schanck and play The National Old Course than play KH -again IMHO.

[Sean Walsh]

Gerry,

Although my golfing experience is less than many that post on this board I must reply to your assessment of Kingston Heath.  

It is as good a course as I have played (I have not played RM or NSW so will not comment on them).  I have played 10 - 15 of what are considered the world's best (Scotland and Ireland).  I believe KH sits easily in this company.  

The day I played the greens were the fastest and truest I have found.  Definitely of better quality than any of the Links courses I played in Scotland and Ireland.  Also the bunkering is not only wonderful architectually speaking (i.e be in position A on fairway or your shot to the flag will likely be most difficult) but also add greatly to the aesthetics of many of the holes.  Combine all this with a bunch of great short par 4's and at least one exquisite par 3.  

If RM and NSW are as good or better I can't wait to play there.  As for the Capital I'm glad you had the contacts or cash to be privileged to walk these hallowed grounds, being australian and not a millionaire I am unlikely to have the opportunity.

Also Mike I caught the end of an interview on SEN a few days ago with you.  I dearly hope that your description (correct me if I'm wrong) of Barnbougle as "being the most significant new course in Australia since RM" is right.  I can't wait to get down there and see for myself.

Mike one last thing.  What has been your involvment with the changes at Port Fairy?  I haven't had the opportunity to read your book yet but I do believe I read somewhere that you have been involved down there and are a big fan of the course.  

Finally Kingston Heath desreves its reputation as one of Austalia's best courses.    

[tonyt]

Gerry,

I never like to spend a week in Sydney without at least one knock around NSW. It is an Australian gem we should all be proud of. But it is distantly behind RMW or RM composite. If as you say we shouldn't let this discussion get bogged down by logistics such as parking and practice facilities, then to be equally fair, we can then also discount quibbles as to whether West or a Composite is in use.

At the end of the day, this is all nitpicking and any overseas visitor would love to play both before they die. But the leading pros from around the world would have a better attendance record if the event was at RM. It is even a solid condition of Ernie's commitment to the Heineken that it be played there.

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